Talk:Emigration from Poland to Germany after World War II

Removal of {{prod}} tag

As the creator of this article, I object to the proposed deletion because, although there are faults in the article, I believe the topic is encyclopedic and the faults can be remedied. --Richard (talk) 01:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

What to do with this article?

This unreferenced article, bordering on WP:OR, needs either a rewrite and referencing, merger (here? to Polish-German relations? or deletion for violation WP:OR). I'd prefer to see the article somehow rescued, so I'll not restore prod if there is some discussion and improvement.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Opinion - There is too many different articles touching the same subject already. This text should be incorporated into Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II. Separate section could be created there if nessesary and title adjusted.--Jacurek (talk) 17:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The topic is interesting and I dont know if the article schould be merged with the Flight and Expulsion (...). First of all not all of the emigramts considerd themselves Germans. Some of them thought of themselves as Silesians, Mazurs etc (or generally Slavs which automaticly excludes the possibility of beeing a German at least from the objective point of view). Some part of them considered themselves Poles but emigrated mostly from the economical and political reasons (disappointment of the Polish economy and political system after 1945). The German legal system provided them with a possibility to gain German citizenship and they just took their chance to live in a well developed country.

From this point of view even the tile of the article schould be changed because not all of those people considered themselves Germans in the first place.

If we agree about those facts the proposed merger schould include a change of the expulsion article title which already is quite long.

So, bottom line, besides those title issues the article needs some work but in my opinion schould be neither deleted nor merged. 156.17.122.152 (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

OK... I took a second look at this article. I don't remember exactly why I created it but I think the issue is that not all Germans who left Poland in the 20th century were expelled or even fled/evacuated after WWII. What that leaves is mostly the family reunification process. I suspect also that there was a process of Polonizing areas which had previously been heavily populated by ethnic Germans, an attitude that said "are you Polish or are you German? We have no room for Germans here". If I am right, this would be worth documenting somewhere in Wikipedia and this might be the best place for it.

Is this worth an encyclopedia article? I'd like to hear what other editors think. What would be interesting is to see if there is any demographic data that characterizes which ethnic Germans left Poland in the 20th century, when they left and why.

Look at it this way... this article isn't about expulsion of Germans. It's about the fact that they left and describing the process. This article should mention expulsion in passing but, from this perspective, it's only part of the picture.

--Richard (talk) 16:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

(yet another) proposed move

Since the article is dedicated primarily to emigrations after 1950, I propose moving it to Emigration from Poland to Germany (1950–present), and rename the first section to "Background". Skäpperöd (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

You mean the section about the Evacuation... or the introduction?Opole.pl (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The evacuation... section. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

And the second thing. What I've written you on your talk page: We also need to remember that all those emigrations/expulsions are connected to WWII. The expulsion is a direct result of it. Merging of families is a result of the expulsions. The emigration of Poles is a result of the new political system that was imposed on Poland after WWII. That's why I decided to change the title so it would refer directly to the war and also so it would avoid the name of a particular nationality because there were also Poles, Silesians and Masurians who emigrated and not only Germans.. Opole.pl (talk) 13:28, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Convinced. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge template

I removed the merge template as the reasons stated for the merge are obsolete after the recent revamp, and no active discussion had taken place for several month. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in process

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:World War II evacuation and expulsion which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RFC bot 01:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Why was a new category "Ethnic cleansing of Germans" added?

I would like to ask why this new category was added to this article? It tells about voluntairy migrations of Polish citizens (accroding to different opinions big part or majority of whom were ethnic Poles) to Germany after the war. It doesn't have in its scope forced expulsions which are covered in other articles. On the contrary most of those people were forced not to leave Poland even though they wished to flee the communist country. As the co-author of this article I would like to know what are the simmilarities of: Brno death marchand Ústí massacre which have much to do with ethnic cleansing, with volunatry emigration from Poland years after the war? If no reasonable anwser will be granted I will take the liberty of removing this category. Opole.pl (talk) 11:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

After considerable amount of time i'm taking the liberty to delete this unfortunate category. Cheers Opole.pl (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Title and contents do not match

What about emigration of migrant workers from Poland? I propose reverting back to a more narrow, older title. Andries (talk) 07:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a paragraph about emigration of other Poles (not only Silesians, Masurs etc.). This was in many cases emigration of workers. Better solution than your proposal is to write more about this particular problem rather than to narrow this article and delete this part compleatelly. Opole.pl (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I do not agree. I think that the emigration solely for economic reasons should be moved to a seperate article Migrant Polish workers in Western Europe or something like that. There is no difference between Polish workers moving to the Netherland or Germany in that respect. Andries (talk) 19:57, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Well you stand alone there. This article concerns emigration after the war to Germany and covers all emigration between 1945 and 1989. Poles emigrated to Germany almost solely for economic reasons. Those who declared themselves Poles in 1945 in the Recovered Territories also emigrated because West Germany was a wealthier country. Only small portion of, lets call them, "true Germans" that were forced to stay after the war due to their skills and know-how in industry and agriculture of the Recovered Territories emigrated perhaps mostly for cultural reasons, but the economic factor was also strong there. Most likely they would like to remain in theirs and their ancestral homes if the standard of living in Poland was as high as in Germany.

If you want to write a different article about emigration from Poland after 1989 or about emigration to Holland be my guest. This article however has a clear scope, its well sourced and was approved by German editors who helped me create it. Opole.pl (talk) 09:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to add the end year 1989 in the title. I do believe that somebody should write an article about Polish migrant workers in Western Europe or Polish migrant workers in Western Europe after 1989. Andries (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

It may be done in the manner you propose but there are few obstacles that need to be taken care of, which concern only emigration (almost solely for economic reasons) to Germany after 1989.

• 1) Large amount of emigrants also used article 116 of German constitution as their way to Germany. This possibility was not available for Polish citizens in other countries of Western Europe - only in Germany. What is more some of them used this right only to enter Germany for a few months, earn some DM or Euro and return home to Poland, where that kind of money allowed them to live in a high standard even for years.
• 2) Emigration to Germany, both before and after 1989, created a specific community o German citizens who spoke Polish and were Slavs (Poles) but also were automatically granted German citizenship. Other Poles had to apply for that right unless they were married to a Pole who was also a former German citizen.
• 3) Emigration to West Germany was always bigger than to other countries also because it was the closest "western" state from the Polish borders (Former British, American and French zones in Berlin were only few dozen km from Poland). Before 1989 Poles sometimes hijacked Polish planes and forced their pilots to land in those parts of Berlin. Afterwards the were often granted an asylum in West Germany.
• 4) After 1989 the illegal emigration to Germany was the largest of all other, due to a very long land boarder between the two states.

That's why emigration from Poland to Germany is somehow unique, even after 1989. Opole.pl (talk) 15:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your interesting and knowledgeable reply. Andries (talk) 10:18, 11 February 2013 (UTC)