Talk:Emmanuel College (Massachusetts)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Dated material, incorrect present tense, marketing language

The article has a lot of dated information with years-old citations that are still written in present tense. I’ve edited what I could but this needs more research and work.

For example, did the college continue raising $120,000 per year for children’s cancer research after 2018? Did it produce Fulbright scholars before/after the 2015-2016 date? (Is producing two fulbrights in one academic year nearly a decade ago really relevant to the college history?)

Likewise, is there a more recent source on the % of male to female students enrolled than the 2007 article cited? And what was the % of male students that constituted the initial surge that happened when the school became a co-educational college?

There’s also a lot of puffery. I edited out marketing language like “glittering” buildings but this could use another close read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GMC2020 (talk • contribs) 10:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

"Attempting to reenact" is a very strong and misleading description of what Winset did. We don't need to cut and paste from an AOL News article for a Wikipedia article.

• Thanks for your analysis. I'm shocked to hear that "strong" language is not permitted within Wikipedia articles. I certainly don't think "attempting to reenact" is "too" strong, considering he was pointing at students exclaiming "POW" "POW", but that's a matter of opinion. Also, for someone who knows so much about Wikipedia, certainly you won't have a problem signing your posts in the future, as per Wiki policy. Thedjb 17:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Emmanuel College "Boston"

Emmanuel College is never referred to Emmanuel College Boston, and its proper name is Emmanuel College. Please keep the "Emmanuel College Boston" quote off the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr emily (talk • contribs) 18:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

If you look at the seal, the name is Emmanuel College Boston (Collegii Emmanuel Bostoniensis in Latin). Additionally, you haven't used edit summaries or any sources to refute what is clearly marked on the academic seal of the institution. Sorry for not seeing this comment earlier. I'd also ask you to used four tildes to sign your page, as the disclaimer above suggests. Other than that, welcome! Let me know if you require anything further, and I'd be curious to see if you can find any evidentiary support for your claims. Cheers! --Aepoutre (talk) 19:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I actually only joined Wikipedia to try to revive this page, so I apologize for being a bit rusty at this. It seems as though an enormous amount of information has been deleted on the page, and as an alum, I was extremely upset by this. The "Bostoniensis" on the seal is used to differentiate Emmanuel College in Boston from the other Emmanuel Colleges (including that in Georgia, the UK, Australia). I don't know that I'll be able to find information regarding this, but the college has never been referred to as "Emmanuel College Boston," nor will it ever be. If you absolutely insist that the title be "Emmanuel College Boston" until I find a good reference source, I would ask that you not state the the college "usually" be refereed to as "Emmanuel College," but instead, "exclusively" referred to as "Emmanuel College." I'll be happy to try to find information about this in the coming weeks if possible. I also intend to make further improvements to the page as I find the time. --Dr emily (talk) 10:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I do insist, per WP:V, but I understand your concern, especially in light of WP:UNIGUIDE. I shall revert this once more, but will change the wording to say "colloquially" because your interpretation of the seal makes sense and supports my argument simultaneously; I know that's why it says "Bostoniensis", but it wouldn't be used in a seal unless that happened to be the name as a result (it isn't simply the location of the institution, as in the seal of Gordon College (Massachusetts), for example). Let me know what you find to the contrary, but I should forewarn you that the evidence will need to be rather hefty (and meet WP:RS) since it would be required to trump the college seal. --Aepoutre (talk) 15:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

In doing some brief "Googling", I've come across an explanation for the seal on the official college page Seal Explanation. As I stated previously, the clear intent of the "Bostoniensis" is not as part of the name of the college, but to signify the location. Other colleges similarly include such descriptives, including the old seal for Columbia University, the name of which has not been "Columbia College New York" Columbia Seal and Saint Rose College, the name of which is not "Saint Rose College Albany" Saint Rose Seal. I propose that the "Boston" be removed from the name of the college, now not only due to the fact that it is quite obviously not part of the name, but also due to the fact that Wikipedia pages for other colleges with very similar seals are not regarded as "College Name City," proving what I would consider inconsistency between pages. Dr emily (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Further, in consulting with my husband's basic Latin grammar text, Wheelock's Latin, (chapter 16) the "-is" at the end of "Bostoniens" signifies "of Boston," that being the genitive singular form of the third declension of the word "Bostoniens." Perhaps, then, under your interpretation of the seal, the proper name of the college would be "Emmanuel College of Boston," but as I previously stated, other colleges with similar seals do not follow this "rule," and for it to be consistent with a multitude of other Wikipedia pages, the name of the college should be (and is) Emmanuel College. Dr emily (talk) 15:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

As I said below, earlier, thanks for that awesome bit of research, Dr. Emily. I was just checking out Boston College (United States) and def. agree: it would normally be collegium and bostoniense but collegii and bostoniensis seem to mean that the seal reads something like "seal of the college emmanuel of boston", which would make perfect sense. Cheers! --Aepoutre (talk) 22:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

A quick search does seem to support the assertion that "Emmanuel College" is the common name. It's the name used by the Department of Education, the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, US News & World Report, and the institution itself. A glance at the search results for "Emmanuel College Boston" doesn't turn up any convincing hits.

So is there any other evidence other than the seal that supports the status quo? And please note that there is definitely a strong element of original research in trying to deduce the English name of this institution from the Latin (?) used on its seal. --ElKevbo (talk) 15:37, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

My reading of the online sources is similar to that of Dr emily(talk) and ElKevbo(talk). The official name of the school seems to be "Emmanuel College" and there's not a lot of evidence, other than the seal, that the "common name" is any different. Per Google and Google Books, the vast majority of uses in the sequence "Emmanuel College Boston" have a comma or dash or parenthetical in there, and may also include "MA" or "Massachusetts." I'd be inclined to think that according to usual protocols, the primary title of the article should be Emmanuel College (Boston, Massachusetts), but evidently no one has seen a need even to make a redirect page with that name, so perhaps it isn't necessary. A comment/question about the seal, for someone with better Latin: "Bostonensis" is clearly not a nominative, and may not be a noun form at all; other sources suggest that it's the adjectival form, in which case wouldn't the actual translation be something like "Bostonian Emmanuel College"? In any event, I'm not sure how much one can read into a seal; for example, Yale's seal, at least in the examples here[1][2]reads "Sigill:Coll:Yalen:Nov:Port:Nov:Angl:" which I'd take to read: "Seal [of?] Yale College New Haven New England".--Arxiloxos (talk) 16:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, the seal explanation that Dr emily mentioned above uses the phrase "Emmanuel College of Boston" in translating the seal text, as if to clarify which Emmanuel College it is. I'm inclined to agree that the title of the article should be Emmanuel College (Boston, Massachusetts) or possibly even the shorter Emmanuel College (Boston), if Boston doesn't carry much ambiguity. Further, if by some reason the official name should be found to include Boston, just mention it in the intro followed by some "commonly known as" text. By comparison, look at the North Carolina State University article, which is referred to as "North Carolina State University at Raleigh" pretty much only in its enabling legislation. —C.Fred (talk) 15:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the other strong point is that the college refers to itself as "Emmanuel College".[3]. Even the legal page of the website uses only the short form. —C.Fred (talk) 15:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I've moved the article to "Emmanuel College (Boston)." Please feel free to move to a more suitable title (the other American institution is at "Emmanuel College (Georgia)") but I think that this is sufficient and appropriate. --ElKevbo (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Given that the Georgia institution is in a minor town, and Boston is major enough to have the article title I just mentioned, I think Boston is more fitting for the disambiguation term. —C.Fred (talk) 16:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow, all this took place in a span of how many days when real life took me away? Sorry I wasn't around to contribute further! Okay, a few thoughts, although it they might be rather ex post facto:

• First, I would've liked to see the moved proposed before it was undertaken, since it's potentially controversial (unless my opinion doesn't count!).
• Second, the current naming convention doesn't follow WP:UNIGUIDE (per WikiProject Universities community recommendations, it should be Emmanuel College (Massachusetts) to disambiguate at the most general between this and Emmanuel College (Georgia) within the U.S.; one of the reasons you won't find Emmanuel College (Boston, Massachusetts) is because that doesn't follow proper naming conventions), so that's a bit odd. ElKevbo, you know better than that :-P!
• I also don't think that a seal (device) reading "Emmanuel College of Boston" is worded with the purpose of disambiguating -- generally, I wouldn't say that colleges were founded with the idea in mind that they would need to disambiguate, which seems more Wikipedia-specific. There are plenty of uniquely named colleges for which the state or city name has been used when referring to them simply because it's helpful.
  • I appreciated the comment on WP:OP.
  • Did anyone look at my Gordon College (Massachusetts) example? I think that via this example I've demonstrated I already know that the use of a location in a seal doesn't mean it's part of the title, but neither does it necessary imply disambiguation per se; it could simply be the location, right?
    • I appreciate the Latin translation info., Dr. Emily.
  • If we assume that there is some sort of disambiguation in the seal (which really seems anachronistic to me), then it could be something like The College of William and Mary in Virginia, which is the full name but often referred to as William & Mary or the College of William & Mary.
  • In response to Dr. Emily above re: Columbia University, the article is named as such due to colloquial use but the official name is Columbia University in the City of New York. There is only one other institution that has been named Columbia University, but it's now the University of Portland so there's not naming conflict.
    • I didn't think disambiguating in the title would be necessary in light of the idea that differing names might already prevent a naming conflict: the difference between Emmanuel College (Georgia) and Emmanuel College Boston.
  • As for Saint Rose College, the article seems to be in some pretty poor shape so I wouldn't use that article to justify decisions related to other articles. I'd prefer citing guidelines and logic to what I'd consider something like a "Jimmy's mom lets him."
• I see the links for seals, but how up-to-date are they? Does Yale's university seal really still read college? Just curious, since I want this to be done right and have seen too many specious arguments based on poor sources in the past to be "taken for a ride" like that again :-).
• I was also concerned that Dr. Emily is on Wikipedia only to edit Emmanuel College, and suppose I still am to some extent because I don't find all of said user's requested evidentiary support one hundred per cent valid and/or convincing (see my above comments), but that's not entirely relevant to the naming issue proper, and there are obviously other editors involved here now.

I think these are some valid concerns, and I don't think they've all been thoroughly addressed, so I'd love to hear more thoughts. --Aepoutre (talk) 20:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the clincher is that the school calls itself Emmanuel College on its web pages. That's a highly reliable source for the name of the institution—and it borders on synthesis to determine it's named something else based on what appears on its seal. What reliable sources call the institution Emmanuel College Boston? I don't see any. —C.Fred (talk) 20:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Good call. I was hoping someone else would do the "due diligence" and show me ([4][5][6] since colleges can easily change the names they use in marketing) instead of making me run the search myself (saying "I can't find anything" instead of using diffs and links doesn't quite satisfy me because it's not directly verifiable), but that's alright. I think you're right, C. Fred, and I'm especially inclined leave it in light of ElKevbo's great point about WP:OR. Thanks for the input, everone, since I obviously spent my time questioning opinions than doing my own research until now (out of an attempt to save time and let the burden of evidence rest elsewhere, I suppose), but I'm happy to finally agree on the most basic point :-). That said, I will move it to the proper disambiguated name at Emmanuel College (Massachusetts), per the UNI naming conventions, now that we all agree. Cheers, everybody! Sorry for being so difficult! --Aepoutre (talk) 21:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

And good catch on the naming convention. —C.Fred (talk) 22:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed - 'twas a good catch. Thanks for moving the article. --ElKevbo (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

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Significant part of college history?

Reading through the "History" section, this paragraph seemed very out of place -

"In May 2020, some students participated in a day of silence to protest what they said was the school's failure to adequately deal with incidents of sexual assault.[13]"

Is that really a significant event in the century-long history of the college? I think it ought to be moved to a different section or taken out entirely. Alexandriensis (talk) 05:18, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

GMC2020 is insisting that this material be placed in a new "Controversies: Campus Sexual Assaults" section, using the edit summary "NOTE: this is not a new section. It was moved from the narrative, as suggested in the talk page for this entry. It also used two sources, not one, and documented there were multiple incidents. It was more recent than some of the other abruptly mentioned items in the history and should either be retained in its own section or integrated into the overall history."

First, the suggestion made above by Alexandriensis is that it "ought be moved to a different section or taken out entirely," not that it should be "moved from the narrative."

Second, the cited sources include one source that describes a 2020 protest and another source that described allegations of a 2016 incident. How does this information meet the burden of due weight? This article should summarize the entire history, organization, resources, accomplishments, and challenges of an institution that is over 100 years old. How does one protest merit inclusion in this article? What changed as a result - any new policies, new hires, changes in strategic priorities, ...? ElKevbo (talk) 02:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

ElKevbo, those sound like questions worthy of additional research. Currently no citations appear to be available re: whether the policies have or have not changed. The lack of follow-up does not, however, warrant full deletion of the material.

Furthermore, calling it “one protest” minimizes and trivializes the incidents.

Deleting the section (added per one of two options Alexandriensis suggested, and which is the suggestion I agree with) erases a significant recent history of multiple sexual assault reports, which received separate media coverage in 2016 and 2020 alike.

Note also that Mr.weedle has thanked me for reversing the section’s deletion, signaling agreement for its continued inclusion.

Thanks for the dialogue GMC2020 (talk) 03:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

So you're suggesting that any incident that has been covered once in one source should be included in this article...? ElKevbo (talk) 04:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

ElKevbo, that is not what I am suggesting, nor does your comment accurately reflect the number of sources cited in the last draft. Your misconstrual of my point and your shifting goalposts raise concerns that you are not discussing in good faith. In any case, I have added fourteen new citations to the section this evening. Regardless of your assertion that this is insignificant in the college's 100-year history, the five years of turmoil from these incidents (including their administrative handling) do seem to constitute a significant part of the institution's history.GMC2020 (talk) 04:26, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Roxbury campus?

Where IS Emmanuel's "living and learning campus in Roxbury, Massachusetts"?? MaynardClark (talk) 03:13, 14 January 2018 (UTC)