Talk:Endurance art

Carry That Weight

Bus stop, do you have any objection to my adding Carry That Weight to the examples on this page? Many of the sources cite only Sulkowitcz, but a few specialist sources (art critics or artists) are calling it endurance art independently of her: for example, art critic Roberta Smith writes that it "[combines] aspects of endurance, body and protest art and participatory relational aesthetics". [1] Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 20:41, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I have no objection to that. I think the thought or a related thought passed through my cerebral cortex but I didn't pay attention to that or any related thought. So, please execute such an edit. Bus stop (talk) 21:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Bus stop, will do. I'll look around and try to find the most authoritative sources. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 21:38, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I could only find the two already mentioned, Roberta Smith and Jon Kessler, so I've added them. There are other non-specialist sources, but they are probably quoting the artist. Smith and Kessler will have identified it independently (as the other article says, the latter worked with Sulkowicz). Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 00:43, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

examples of artwork

BoboMeowCat, you have added Vito Acconci in this edit but I have reverted that. The source, "The Lantern", is merely a student newspaper. Do we find similar implications in more substantial sources? Also, we are not actually listing artists here but rather examples of artworks sourced to be examples of "Endurance art". Bus stop (talk) 20:10, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi Bus stop, I added another source for Acconci, which mentions one of his pieces. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 23:18, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is a more substantial source. Thank you. Bus stop (talk) 02:31, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Suggest WP:MERGE to Performance art

I don't think it would be a bad idea to merge this article into performance art. There is a lot of support in sourcing for performance art and little support in sourcing for endurance art, which may represent merely a subset of all performance art. Bus stop (talk) 01:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I would prefer to keep them separate for now. There are actually quite a lot of sources out there, but googling "endurance art" won't necessarily pull them up because people express it in different ways (e.g. they might talk about endurance performances, or performances that rely on endurance, or where endurance is the focus, etc). As it's just a stub, it might be better to wait to see whether it grows. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 01:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Taken to the extreme, endurance art is probably not going to be art. "Endurance" is only an element found in some performance pieces. Bus stop (talk) 02:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It's a subset of performance art, but it's the focus of some pieces rather than an element. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 02:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Merely by degree. That is why the phenomenon should be described within its proper context. You say it is "the focus of some pieces". It would never be the sole focus of a piece or that piece would unlikely be art. Mere degree of presence of endurance does not justify a standalone article. Pain attracts attention. This might be one reason why some commentators highlight the endurance factor found in some performance pieces. But endurance art is not a world apart from performance art. What sets endurance art apart from mere performance art? Our article says "Endurance art may explore issues of identity, loss, and alienation". Is this in any way in distinction from performance art? Might not performance art also "explore issues of identity, loss, and alienation"? The endurance factor is not more closely associated with the exploration of identity, loss, and alienation than performance pieces that do not involve pain, exertion or duress. Bus stop (talk) 03:11, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I've created an alert to this merger proposal here, with the hope that others will weigh in. Bus stop (talk) 16:09, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

What is going on with this article?

@Bus stop: what's going on here? You've previously attempted to delete this article saying "there is no such thing as endurance art" [2] and when that was unsuccessful, because it's contradicted by RS's, it seems you've now made massive undiscussed changes to the endurance art article, which have basically gutted the article, taking it from this informative and well written version [3] to this non-informative and poorly written version [4]. These multiple and massive changes have been only explained in edit summary. I think talk page explanation of on what basis you are now asserting that there's "no definition of endurance art" needs to take place before you rewrite the article to suggest this. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:48, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

@BoboMeowCat: If you have a source telling you what "endurance art" is, please present it right here on this Talk page because I would be interested in seeing it. I thank you in advance. Bus stop (talk) 00:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Bus stop:You have claimed that the source previously cited to define it does not. It is behind a paywall of sorts. [5] Have you read it? Why do you think it does not support the previous definition. Please clarify your objection to the way the source was previously used. Also pinging User:SlimVirgin because I believe she may have added the source in question. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@BoboMeowCat: What is "endurance art"? Not in your opinion, but according to sources? Bus stop (talk) 01:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Bus stop: I have no reason to believe it is not what was described in the previous version of article and attributed to this source [[6]

Endurance art is a kind of performance art that involves some form of hardship, such as pain, solitude or the passage of long periods of time. Its roots may be found in monasticism or religious asceticism, which links physical deprivation and self-control with physical transcendence and spiritual transformation. However, that source is behind a paywall of sorts and I haven't read it. Have you? If not, it seems you should not edit content attributed to a source you haven't read.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Bus stop, whatever your personal views, I'd appreciate it if you would stop (here and at Emma Sulkowicz). Regardless of anything else, the writing is suffering, and I'm still not sure what your real objection is. If you think this ought not to exist, please nominate it for deletion. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 01:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, You are adding original research to this article. This is original research: "Endurance art is a kind of performance art that involves some form of hardship, such as pain, solitude or the passage of long periods of time". No source whatsoever supports that. You cannot just state that without a source. Compare that assertion with the support in sources for Performance art. There are entries in substantial books for the type of art called "Performance art". Consider the following two books:

ArtSpeak: A Guide to Contemporary Ideas, Movements, and Buzzwords, 1945 to the Present, by Robert Atkins, Abbeville Press, ISBN-13: 978-0789211514

Art in the Modern Era: A Guide to Styles, Schools, & Movements, by Amy Dempsey, Publisher: Harry N. Abrams, ISBN-13: 978-0810941724

The word "endurance" is sometimes invoked by writers when speaking about some performance pieces. It is a useful word in the English language. Wikipedia does not have the liberty to elevate it into an art form and to define it. Bus stop (talk) 01:58, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

The sources call it endurance art, including specialist sources. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 02:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Endurance Art Examples (photos)

Hello. There is a discussion that was just started regarding one of the photos of Endurance Art. Namely, the Abel Azcona's Seropositive, 2015, Madrid. Due to this being a general art page (of a 'type' of art), there should be some discussion as to if this example is necessary (indeed, even in a secure facility like a museum, there would be a notice regarding this exhibit). I'm not a prude, but is there any particular purpose for having nudity (including gentalia) on this page? Also, please note that the photo example was just added last month with no discussion or guidance. So here I ask for direction. Please discuss and advise. Thank you kindly. With respect Hamiltucky1978 (talk) 23:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Hamiltucky1978, thank-you for your comments. Nudity is traditionally a common aspect of performance art. The photo of this notable artist's work adds to the understanding of the subject, and furthers Wikipedia's mission. Since Wikipedia is not censored, I don't see a reason to remove it. PS, editors generally don't require permission or discussion prior to making an edit. I hope this helps answer your questions. --IamNotU (talk) 02:17, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

*Drop the pic - I could care less about the nudity in the art generally speaking as I grew up when the NatGeo mags were waited for and it isnt much more. the problem with the picture is that i dont think it has anything to do with endurance art and unless the proposer has something supporting that is the type of art it represents it should be removed. the exact same pic is on the artist wp page as well, so its redundant and unnecessary as well. the artist has no reference to endurance art on his page, which is what makes me suspect the image fails to develop the page. ToeFungii (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@ToeFungii: that's a fair point. The artist's page does have a reference in the first paragraph: "His first works dealt with personal identity, violence and the limits of pain". But I'm not sure to what extent this particular piece represents endurance art. He was being tattooed during the performance, but does that really fit the description? Pinging @Lolay1983: you added this photo last month - why do you feel that this is a particularly relevant example of endurance art, when the artist isn't mentioned in the article? The works listed in the "Examples" section all seem to have citations of reliable sources - do you have one for this one? --IamNotU (talk) 16:49, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

*Remove image - as undue; there is no indication that this piece is particularly notable / of high historical importance within the category of endurance art. The other images, 'The Artist is Present' and 'Cage Piece' both have significant coverage of the piece in RS sources. Azcona's Seropositive has no significant, independent coverage as a piece either here or on his page. Dialectric (talk) 18:01, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

ToeFungii and Dialectric, the image/work has been replaced with another by the same artist, with links, examples, and a citation added to the article by Lolay1983. Does that solve the issue? --IamNotU (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it solves the issue. The image change is an improvement, as it uses a more notable piece, though it could be debated whether The Death of The Artist is a piece of high historical importance; while we have an article on that piece, suggesting notability, many of the refs in the 'The Death of The Artist' article don't mention that piece by name and focus on the artist and/or other works. WP:COATRACK issues on The Death of The Artist are getting outside of the scope of this discussion, though, and I don't have the time or interest to work on these further.Dialectric (talk) 19:14, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@IamNotU, I believe so. I have to admit I appreciate art but am anything but someone that appreciates it. I think for what I looked at it seemed like it fit more with the topic. I don't have any real issues with respect to notable mainly because as a general rule i think it takes time for something to become notable (ie decades), but at the same time that would be an unreasonable time period to be blank. I'd also like to thank you for your awesome handling of the issue. on so many pages I see arguments and fighting, but everything was handled here very cordially and honestly. very refreshing at a time when it seems like the world is coming to an end. ToeFungii (talk) 22:18, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words! --IamNotU (talk) 01:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

You say Endurance and I say Durational.

Hi,

This discussion has been durational. Over 5 years it's quietly rumbled on. It hasn't involved pain or suffering as far as i'm aware.

BUT: I think there is a good argument for using the term "Durational Art". Endurance Art may or may not be a subset of Durational Art or just of Performance Art. Pain and suffering may separate them but i do feel durational art should have its own page as its easy enough to draw a line between an 'event' that people can comfortable attend and one that people would be hard pressed to witness in it's entirety.

Personally I'd put a border at about 2 hours.

So:

• More than 2 hours = Durational Art.
• Less than 2 hours = Performance Art.
• Pain and suffering involved? Call it 'Endurance Art'.

Pease & love etc

Spinner (talk) 12:20, 29 April 2022 (UTC)