Talk:Conflagration (film)

Requested move 26 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus is for a move here; Conflagaration has been shown to be a commonly-used name in English, and no opposition has been raised citing anything other than Conflagaration not being common. (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:25, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

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Enjō → Conflagration (film) – At present, the title "Conflagration (film)" redirects to "Enjō". As Conflagration is the common English title of the film, the redirect should be reversed, i. e. typing "Enjō" should redirect to "Conflagration (film)", not the other way around as it is now. Robert Kerber (talk) 07:51, 26 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• The first hit on Google Books is a chapter from the edited volume Kon Ichikawa which is titled "A Story of Cruel Youth: Kon Ichikawa's Enjo and the Art of Adapting in 1950s Japan". TimeOut and the Museum of Modern Art and The New York Times use Enjō. No evidence that something else is the common title in English has been presented here so far. Dekimasuよ! 13:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The Moma link user Dekimasu has given himself clearly cites Conflagration as the English release title of Enjo already in the headline. The NYT article cites Conflagration as English title in its first sentence, when one makes the effort to read it. Only Time Out lists Enjo only.

Regarding "the first hit on Google", this is what Google lists, including scholars like Donald Richie, Jasper Sharp, Alastair Philips, James Quandt, Noël Burch, Keiko McDonald, and on the following page Arne Svensson, James Monaco, etc. who all cite Conflagration as the English market title. Not in the Google list is e. g. Alexander Jacoby's "Critical Handbook of Japanese Film Directors", which also states Conflagration. So does this article on Ichikawa in the Guardian.

Conflagration is also the title cited by MUBI, Rotten Tomatoes, The Criterion Channel, the Berlinale, The Japan Society Turner Classic Movies etc.

I think the majority of links/sites/literature sufficiently support my statement and redirect request. Robert Kerber (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Mentioning an English translation of a title is not the same as indicating that the English version is preferred by the source. We do not attempt to determine a "common English title" when choosing article titles; rather, we attempt to determine the common name in English-language reliable sources. This is why we have the article on the temple from this film at Kinkaku-ji instead of Temple of the Golden Pavilion. Writing "Enjō (Conflagration)" or titling an article "Japan's Enjō" shows a clear preference for the title "Enjō", so I have not committed the error of "not making the effort to read" something. But anyway, this should be a discussion, not an argument. Instead of opposing this request I pointed out that no evidence of the common name had been presented. In the future, if initiating a move request, please consider "making the effort" to provide evidence from the beginning. Dekimasuよ! 16:26, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  I agree on your last point, this I should have done when I made the request.

  As I've stated and provided evidence for above, the commonly used English title (not literal translation) under which the film had been released and under which it is repeatedly cited by the majority of sources concerned here (scholar's books, press, internet) should serve as the article's title here. See for reference also the other films by Ichikawa Kon here on WP which appear with their English titles under which they have played US/UK festivals/retrospectives, seen cinema/home media releases and been reviewed in English language literature. Robert Kerber (talk) 17:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Enjo In ictu oculi (talk) 13:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  User:In_ictu_oculi May I ask the reason for your vote regarding the fact that Conflagration is not just an informal English title but one that is widely in use as such as I've provided evidence for above? Robert Kerber (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There's some discussion, but not enough to determine a consensus, and this is a low-participation RM. I think what's needed here to determine a consensus is more participation. Hopefully some WikiProject notifications help. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Film has been notified of this discussion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Japan has been notified of this discussion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:21, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Conflagration is the WP:COMMONNAME by which this Japanese film is known in the English-speaking world. As pointed out in the nomination, English-language film references and databases do indeed use "Conflagration" — IMDb, AllMovie, Filmsite, TCM, Rotten Tomatoes, etc. Even Japan Society (Manhattan) lists it as "Conflagration". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Support. Normally, I'd argue WP:NATURAL, but a search for "Enjō" finds too little for it to not be obscure. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 03:39, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.