Talk:Eric Chouinard

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For ECs suspension see: http://www.hockeyweb.de/artikel.php?a=42052 http://www.spox.com/de/sport/eishockey/0901/News/Straubing-Tigers-suspendieren-Eric-Chouinard.html88.65.220.158 (talk) 10:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. DJSasso (talk) 22:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

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Éric Chouinard → Eric Chouinard — Diacritics on Eric Chouinard's given name (as “Éric”) is not accurate or required. Per policy as stated at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey#Wikiproject notice, "All North American hockey pages should have player names without diacritics." Although Chouinard is currently playing in Germany, he was born in the United States and raised in Canada. Some European sources[1] do show his first name with diacritics, but as he is a North American player, such usage is incorrect. Spelling with diacritics can be addressed with a redirect. Dolovis (talk) 14:37, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support, as I'm against usage of diacritics on any biography article title. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support though I think you're wrong about all North American players, since Quebec is a French region of North America, and non-pro players from there might have diacritics (but I do not support diacritics in page titles, any page titles) 184.144.164.14 (talk) 00:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose The prior line in that notice is what applies to the titles of the players actual pages. All player pages should have diacritics applied (where required). The line you quote is about team pages and the like. Diacritics are common in names of people of French Canadian descent. -DJSasso (talk) 12:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I'm surprised by the lack of participation at this RM. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

  Probably because most people are tired of fighting about diacritics and stick to the compromise. Dolovis understandably misinterpreted the notice since he wasn't around when we finally settled the issue. But you know better than to stir this pot. I am disappointed in you especially after a large number of editors asked you to stop making this exact sort of edit. -DJSasso (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per prior agreement DJSasso mentioned. There are many current and former NHL players whose player articles have diacritics in their article name. The agreement was to not include diacritics on the Team rosters and the like. -Pparazorback (talk) 01:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Change to Support as communication with this player has confirmed that his legal name in fact does not include the diacritic -Pparazorback (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Where is this compromise and prior agreement? Does it says that we are to use diacritics even when it is not required, and even when it is not the commonly used form of the name? Dolovis (talk) 01:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The compromise and prior agreement mentioned is the notice you linked to. Commonly used form was debated...one of the things people couldn't agree on was if an accent or lack thereof was a different form of the name or not. Really diacritics are just a big mess. -DJSasso (talk) 01:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

All the more reason to clean them up. Dolovis (talk) 01:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

THe notice says: All player pages should have diacritics applied (where required). That means the Player's article would keep diacritics. The reference to: All North American hockey pages should have player names without diacritics means that should a North American hockey article (such as one with a roster) would have the player's name listed without diacritics. That does not mean that a North American Hockey player's article should not have diacritics in their name.-Pparazorback (talk) 02:47, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment from nom The move to "Eric Chouinard" is also justified by the policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) which says that The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title. I can find only a single source (eliteprospects) that uses the diacritic. All other sources do not. Dolovis (talk) 01:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Dolovis, nobody despises the usage of the dios more then me (many here can atest to that). I recommend that ya 'withdraw' this RM, so as to avoid this sensative topic. GoodDay (talk) 01:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Amen to that, I definitely attest that GoodDay has been the project's Anita Bryant against diacritics -Pparazorback (talk) 02:47, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not a debate about the general use of diacritics. It is not my intention to start such a debate. This is simply a "move request" because in this specific case diacritics are not required and using them for Eric's name is contrary to the player's commonly used name. Dolovis (talk) 03:09, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Which would be fine if the name he was given was Eric and not Éric as it actually is. For the common usage of his name, the redirect page Eric Chouinard already exists. -Pparazorback (talk) 03:32, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Can you support your argument with links to demonstrate that "Éric" is the commonly used form of his name?

Where did I say that Éric was the common used form of his name? I said For the common usage of his name, the redirect page Eric Chouinard already exists. However, his name is Éric, not Eric, so his article should remain as such. -Pparazorback (talk) 03:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, but sympathize. I am another anti-diacritic person, but if his given name uses it, the title should remain as is. That is consistent with how Wikipedia treats names of people. i.e., Jaromír Jágr, though the overwhelming majority of English sources do not use accented i and a. Resolute 05:10, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

But that is the point - it is not his given name. His given name is Eric, not Éric. He was born in Atlanta, Georgia - not Quebec. Eric is not a French name (it is Norse) and so would not normally be written with diacritics. Your example of Jágr is not relevant to this discussion as he is a European player. If you wish to oppose this move request, then please support your argument with links to show that Éric is his commonly used name, or otherwise, identify a source that shows that Éric is his given name. The test is whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. Dolovis (talk) 05:28, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't see an accident of birthplace because of where his father was playing as being especially relevant. A month later, and he would have been born in Calgary. Point taken, however, on the origin of Eric. Thinking further, I think that unless it is shown that his given name actually uses the diacritic, it should be removed. Resolute 17:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Is that allowable under the gentlemen's agreement, though? GoodDay (talk) 19:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, only names that actually have them should keep them. -DJSasso (talk) 20:25, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

If it is verified that his legal name does not have the diacritic, then I would strike my oppose. However, it cannot be merely assumed that because he was born in Atlanta that his name could not possibly have a diacritic in it. -Pparazorback (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• • Jagr definitely needs to be renamed. His name does not use diacritics in English, and this is English Wikipedia, not the Central European Wikipedia (though from the appearance of Central European articles, you'd hardly know that). 65.95.14.96 (talk) 07:08, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
• Support. It appears, from the sources, that the use of a diacritic by a few places is actually an error, and the un-dicriticed (is that a word?) version is the proper spelling. oknazevad (talk) 13:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I just sent an email to Éric Chouinard to see what the proper spelling should be. Of course, I would need to get a response back, but... -Pparazorback (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I changed my !vote above as I got response back from the player and his name in fact does not include the diacritic -Pparazorback (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

So much ado about nothing, but at least now it has confirmed that his correct and proper name is Eric. I think that it should be the other way around though - that one would have to demonstrate that the use of diacritics is required (as stated in the policy) before using diacritics. I sincerely believed that my proposition to move this article to its proper title would be uncontroversial. Going forward, the obvious solution is to just follow the policy and to have North American players' titles without diacritics, and to only use diacritics for non-North Americans when it is required. Dolovis (talk) 20:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

But what policy are you referring to? You referred to Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey#Wikiproject notice above, which says:

* All player pages should have [[diacritic]]s applied (where required).
* All North American hockey pages should have '''player names''' without diacritics.
* All non-North American hockey pages should have diacritics applied (where required).

which supports our agreement that All player pages would keep their diacritics, that all All North American hockey pages would have them hidden meaning pages such as Pittsburgh Penguins would not show them, and lastly All non-North American hockey pages such as HK Nitra would not hide diacritics. The line All North American hockey pages should have player names without diacritics. does not refer to articles about specific players, just the hockey articles that link to them. -Pparazorback (talk) 21:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

An example I will provide is for Dominik Hasek. His wikipedia article is properly titled Dominik Hašek which is point #1 of the agreement. All references of him on his North American articles, such as on List of Detroit Red Wings players have him referenced as Dominik Hasek which is point #2 of the agreement. Finally, HC Spartak Moscow refers to him as Dominik Hašek which refers to point #3. -Pparazorback (talk) 21:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Hašek is a European player, not North American. The key words being "where required". If this discussion has taught us anything, it should be understood that in North America the use of diacritics in names is extremely rare, and for that reason the default position must be that the payer's name does use diacritics unless it can be demonstrated that such use is required. It is faulty logic to assume that a North American born person will spell his name with diacritics, even if his father has French-Canadian roots. Even more so when the name in question is not of French origin. Dolovis (talk) 21:20, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, here are some North American players under the same situation as Hasek: Jean Béliveau, Émile Bouchard, Georges Vézina. Yes, while these players are indeed french-canadian, it is poor judgement to assume that only players that are french canadian should be allowed the diacritics. Their articles themselves, per our agreement, should keep their diacritics and redirects without the diacritics can be created to allow a searcher to get to them without using them. The point is, if it is their name, it should remain. GoodDay is in your corner on this as he is against the usage of all diacritics, but will concede that the consensus that was agreed to is how I am describing it. -Pparazorback (talk) 21:38, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Why are you continuing to make a big deal out of this? I said "Going forward" the names of North American persons should not use diacritics unless it can be demonstrated that it is required. That does not violate your "gentlemen's agreement". Dolovis (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Because of your failed understanding of the agreement. As long as you understand that the diacritics on the player's article name are to remain if their legal name includes diacritics, then we are fine. To arbitrarily remove diacritics from a player who's legal name includes one is incorrect and against the agreement. -Pparazorback (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Hey - I should not need to remind you that I started this discussion for to request moving this article when it was obvious to me that the name "Éric" was used in error. How does that action demonstrate my "failed understanding" of an agreement that I was not a part of? If anything it demonstrates that I am seeking the input and consensus of other interested editors, which is clearly in keeping the spirit of Wikipedia policy, and does not in anyway suggest or demonstrate that I am out to change the use of diacritics for persons if their legal name includes their use (as you appear to be implying). Unless someone else feels it necessary to oppose this article's requested move, it seems that we have unanimous support in favour of the requested move. Dolovis (talk) 22:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This is an emotional moment for me. Some of you understand why, I'm sure. GoodDay (talk) 22:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)