Talk:Eric Gilbertson (climber)

Some primary source allowed based on WP:ABOUTSELF

"Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they are established experts in the field, so long as:

1. The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
2. It does not involve claims about third parties;
3. It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
4. There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and
5. The article is not based primarily on such sources."

KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPSELFPUB

I reverted the article back to Magnolia's first edit, as per WP:BLPSELFPUB and WP:ABOUTSELF. The AAJ article was not entirely written by Gilbertson; it only used excerpts. I have added more secondary sources into the article, interspersed with primary sources. The primary sources are used as references for information and are not copied verbatim. Using the criteria of WP:BLPSELFPUB & WP:ABOUTSELF, I have found that Gilbertson's primary sources have authenticity, given these sources are trip reports on climbing mountains. Look at the above topic for more information on why WP policy allows the usage of primary, self-published sources when the topic is the subject. As stated before, I have added more secondary sources so the article does not disproportionately rely on Gilbertson's primary sources. Regarding claims about other events, many of Gilbertson's trip reports discuss him surveying and determining new country highpoints, but these instances are covered by secondary sources. Claims about third parties are not covered in the article. Perhaps the athlete resume is self-serving, but other than that, his info seems unbiased.

Please respond with feedback here. Thanks! KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 17:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I have decided to not include the chart of country highpoints climbed as that would be relying too much on a primary source. KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:THREE

KnowledgeIsPower9281, in future do NOT revert proposed deletions.

Please identify the WP:THREE best sources that establish notability of the subject.

It would also be helpful if you could please identify with specificity, exactly which criteria you believe the page meets (eg "I think the page meets WP:ANYBIO criteria #3, because XXXXX"). Thanks Cabrils (talk) 02:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello Cabrils, I apologise for reverting the proposed deletion. I should have added the template back to the article after reverting and will do so next time.

The WP:THREE best sources demonstrating notability are:

1) K2 2022: No O’s, Unsupported Summits on Broad Peak and K2 – Interview with Andreas Frydensberg and Eric Gilbertson. This source / interview is by Alan Arnette. While a self published source, Arnette is one of the most respected historians and experts on the 8000 meter peaks, summarizing each season on these mountains. He is recognized by Outside Magazine as such.

2) The Line: Global Ambition. While part of this source from the American Alpine Club was an excerpt from Gilbertson, the rest of the article is independently written.

3) Sometimes at Gunpoint, Twins Discover New Highpoints Around The World. ExplorersWeb is a leading reliable source on expeditions, as per Mark Horrell, another respected chronicler of Everest and the 8,000ers.

In terms of criteria met:

- I believe the page meets WP:ANYBIO criteria #1 because Gilbertson has received a significant award; the Snow Leopard award, being the third American to do so. This has coverage on ExplorersWeb.

- The page also meets WP:SPORTSPERSON because Gilbertson has seen coverage on the independent sources mentioned above and has won that aforementioned Snow Leopard award.

In terms of general notability, Gilbertson has also received publicity from independent sources for various surveys he has done, including in Saudi Arabia and Washington. These sources and the WP:THREE mentioned above were written independently of Gilbertson (other than the one excerpt used) and provide significant coverage on the subject. It is worth mentioning that a few do interact with Gilbertson directly such as the Alan Arnette source, but Gilbertson has done many noteworthy things in the climbing world including the Snow Leopards, his surveys, and becoming the first to reach the highest peak in each of the 'Stans / North American countries. An ExplorersWeb article (by same author as before) documents the former, while an MIT write-up documents the latter.

Should climbing-related content not document sufficient notability then something related to his mechanical engineering career could be used.

Thank you Cabrils and have a great weekend. Let me know your thoughts.

KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 16:26, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@KnowledgeIsPower9281, thanks for providing this. No doubt Gilbertson is a gun climber, it's just that a page on him must meet the criteria. Unfortunately I'm seeing a lot of issues with this WP:THREE and in my view none of these 3 sources meet WP:RS:

Source 1: as you note, is a blog and so fails WP:RS.

Source 2: as you note, is effectively authored by the subject, however AJA is certainly WP:RS so this source may carry some weight towards notability, but certainly is insufficient on its own.

Source 3: ExplorersWeb does not appear to be WP:RS: As the About Us page notes:

"ExplorersWeb was founded 20 years ago by Tom and Tina Sjögren...We started ExWeb because back then it was hard for independent explorers/climbers who wanted to do Everest, the Poles, etc., to find resources and information...How to contribute: Are you doing something new? An expedition with a twist or an edge? If so, we need to hear about it. We cover exploration, adventures and journeys in all extreme environments – oceans, jungles, deserts, mountains and the Arctic. If you think your adventure warrants an interview or ExWeb-written story, please get in touch."

This implies WP:QUESTIONABLE.

So we are really looking for reliable independent sources.

"Gilbertson has done many noteworthy things in the climbing world": any reliable sources that document these would be helpful.

Please persevere because the page has potential. Cabrils (talk) 02:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello Cabrils,

I have found several other independent sources on Gilbertson. On his country Highpoints webpage he has a media coverage section, though the sources I've found appear to have been produced independently of Gilbertson, with Gilbertson only being the subject / interviewee. For instance:

1) Alumni have summitted the highest points of every North American country, by The Tech, 2016. This is MIT's student newspaper and appears reliable, as per the about page.

2) Twin peaks: Brothers' mission to climb every national highpoint, by BBC, 2022. This is an audio interview he did with BBC Newsday.

3) “196 countries, 196 summits – our definition of vacation isn’t lying on the beach" by Sueddeutsche Zeitung, 2022. This is Germany's largest newspaper and is behind a paywall, but Gilbertson provides a translated PDF file on his website. Again, while Gilbertson has this media section, the source appears independent of him.

4) Twin peaks: brothers Matthew and Eric Gilbertson rewrite mountain record books, The Times of London, 2022.

5) Country Highpoints – Brothers try to be the first to reach the highest mountain in 196 countries, National Geographic Poland, 2022.

If we need more, I can certainly find some. This source, an LA times article, only used him as a reference, but is still a noteworthy source. KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 14:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

KnowledgeIsPower9281, thanks for that. Those sources would all be welcome additions to the page so I encourage you to add them.

And just to complete the paperwork, if you have any connection to the subject, including being paid, you have a conflict of interest that you must declare on your Talk page (to see instructions on how to do this please click the link).

Cheers, Cabrils (talk) 01:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)