Talk:Eschatology (religious movement)

Welcome info

• Where is Walter's grave?, in Florida? This is important since eschatologists claim that, like Jesus’ purported resurrection, Walter passed to the next plane of existence without experiencing death! This is not accurate. Eschatologists do not claim that Walter didn't die (or transitioned).

• What happened to his wife and their handicapped son? Are descendants of the Walters alive?

• What happened between Walter’s sudden death and Genevieve Rader’s revival of the cult in 1962? Eschatology is not a cult.

• How many schisms have occurred after Rader took over the organization? How many orthodox and schismatic eschatologists there are in the world? This has not been documented and it would be almost impossible to know.

Any info will be welcomed, preferably from published sources. Of course, if the William Wilfred Walter article is created biographical info from Eschatology (cult) will have to be moved there. —Cesar Tort 05:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

This article has been translated in the Spanish Wikipedia as Escatología (movimiento religioso). —Cesar Tort 08:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that the name "Eschatology (religious movement)" on this page be further updated to read: "Eschatology - The Walter Method (Metaphysical teaching)" which is what he (William Walter) called it, and this article seems to be about him and his particular teaching. I am the person who requested the "(cult)" be replaced with "(religious movement)", but, upon reflection, I think the above more correctly reflects what Mr. Walter wrote about. It is decidedly not a cult. Nor is it a religion in today's sense of that word.

For background, I came across this teaching 30+ years ago as a teenager. My grandmother had taken classes many years before that, and she had a number of books lying around from those days. After reading all of them, I looked for 23 years for anyone else associated with this so-called cult. Thanks to the internet, I found them eight (8) years ago. I have met four (4) others who have studied, and I've interacted via e-mail with two (2) others. They ask for no donations, the classes are affordable, the books are affordable, and they only ask that you put sufficient effort in understanding the works you are studying. If you wish to teach, you must follow their rules and regulations, which are few. Otherwise, there is no other structure.

In commenting on the questions above, the answers are irrelevant, other than from a curiousity standpoint. The writings of Mr. Walter's stand as the only important part of this Metaphysical teaching. We know little to nothing (with complete certainty) of the passing of any historical so-called prophet (teacher); therefore how Mr. Walter passed on does not change the Truth (or error) of what he's written. One must read, study and apply the works (or not) to find out for oneself. Steven 13:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenrrich (talk • contribs)

removals

Hi :-) I've corrected some material under "Similarities" at least as it applied to Christian Science (I don't know anything about "Eschatology") 81.108.35.99 07:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I am reverting your changes since the paragraphs you removed are concordant with Wikipedia’s Christian Science article. Please read that article. Thank you. —Cesar Tort 07:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice little article. I've done some minor textual and grammatical copyediting (and replaced a nonexistant category with the correct one). Rockpocket 17:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed the comment about Leibniz since it is wrong.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Emnipass (talk • contribs)

moved from Tort's talk page

Hello Cesar, a new editor (Jose L Martinez Damian) went to town on the Eschatology article from a clearly pro POV. There may be some good edits in there, but the majority were not (for example, he or she changed every reference of "death" to "transition"). I largely reverted the edits, leaving just one or two that i thought were a slight grammatical improvement. However, you obviously know more about this than most, so perhaps you could read over them to see if there are any in there that are factual and appropriate and if so, add them back. Thank you. Rockpocket 05:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting since most of them aren’t accurate. Though I promised to work on Wikipedia only on Sunday, I consider this an exceptional case.

The article has been a real hit: a wiki link to it still appeared as #1 in an “Eschatology” Google search the last time I did the search, though the Spanish version of the article (Escatologia) recently dropped to the third place.

This time only POV modifications and minor improvements were performed. But the article was vandalized on July 2 by an American (as can be gathered from the IP number). On the other hand, since Jose Martinez is familiar with the work of Juan del Rio, I guess he is Mexican.

They don’t believe in the existence of death but are indoctrinated to use the word “transition” —or “conscious transition” to refer to the very enlightened “eschatologists” like Enoch, Jesus and Walter. They claim that these three men went to the next “level of existence” without experiencing death. In their official biography of Walter the year of his birth is indicated but not the year of his death at seventy two. Students of Eschatology are advised not to use the word “death” since they believe that “thinking is causative”, and they don’t want to get sick or die.

I’ll only keep a few of Martinez’s true improvements (like the name of the current director for example) but not unproven statements like Walter’s paranormal healing work as a practitioner. Also, Martinez removed the sentence that Eddy didn’t reject theism as radically as Walter did. Unlike most students of Eschatology who only read Walter’s books, I have read some of Eddy’s books as well and it’s clear that she didn’t reject theism despite Walter’s claims to the contrary.

I wonder if it is wise to copy and paste this exchange to that article talk page? —Cesar Tort 06:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

That was my interpretation also, but not being familiar with the cult, i wasn't sure. I attempted to engage the editor here. but to no avail (so far). I'll keep an eye on the article, in your absence, during the week to ensure it remains NPOV. Feel free to copy this exchange to the talk page. Rockpocket 18:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Threaded discussion from here

The three dogmas in Eschatology are:

• “Only the good is real”

• “Everything is mental”

• “You are your own cause”

I.e., you cause everything that happens to you. The Shiite Muslims victims of the Sunnite bombings in Iraq or the 9/11 American victims caused their deaths.

Eschatologists also maintain that viruses don’t exist. And I could go on and on to point out an ad infinitum list of “nonexistent” things and situations (“Only the good is real” is the cult’s main dogma).

Yes: eschatologists get shocked to see the word “belief” associated to their system. That word was much used by Walter, and it means “erring human belief” for them (such as the so-called “belief” that viruses exist!). However, all of the above genuine beliefs and dogmas are everything but a common sense system.

Eschatology cannot be defined as a "common sense and reasoning" system (Martinez's proposal) in a secular encyclopedia like Wikipedia. —Cesar Tort 17:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Move/Rename

The title as it is is POV - I am going to move this article to 'Eschatology (Religion)' unless there is a valid reason not to... or if someone could suggest a more appropriate title. Sfacets 02:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, which i hadn't considered before. The problem could arise in that the other Eschatology article is about theology also, albeit more mainstream. Rockpocket 05:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree, which is why I was asking for suggestions for a title... it can't stay as it is. Maybe we could move the page to "The Walter Method of Christian Science" (The earlier name given to the teachings) and make this page a redirect..?

Sfacets 09:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

No. Present-day Eschatology —just see the above quoted dogmas— is closer to New Age cults than to Christian Science. I respect your pov that you dislike the article List of groups referred to as cults, as you say in your user page. But Wikipedia has no official policy prohibiting the labeling of some organizations as cults. Has it? —Cesar Tort 09:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it does have! I wrote the above five months ago and I was unaware of the non-pov-name-in-title policy, and agree with David.Monniaux’s moving the article from Eschatology (cult) to Eschatology (religious movement). —Cesar Tort 18:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Good night my friends Rockpoket and Cesar Tort

In reading all your suggestions about where to catalog Eschatology in this magnificent Encyclopedia, the last of Mr. Walter's writings in cronologic publishing, you'll find that the "Common Sense Series" Non-sectarian booklets, were written between 1925 and 1940, even after his major works "The Sickle" and "The Sharp Sickle"; In Booklet 13 named Methaphysics he states the name "The Walter Method of Eschatology", which you could use with no antagomism with other "cults" or religions opinions. Yes, Eschatology has deeply rooted in México in the last 30 years, in which I've been a dedicated student by the last 20 years. One of the finnest points of this "thought line", is the abscence of any form of cult or religious teaching or prayering (dont care if you catalog it as a cult).

About Mr. Walter's biographic information, today we only have some lines written by her wife after 1941; a chapter in The Sickle called "Experiments and Experiences", and an early book called "Five Years in Christian Science", by the text I find in this article, I believe you used this work already.

The first mexican teacher who was a direct student of Genevieve L. Rader, was Mario Estrada Elizondo (Mario was my teacher years ago), who some years ago decided to leave the american schooll based on a subject that he was the only teacher trully teaching the Walter Method according to "Our Plan", a booklet published by Mr. Walter in 1929. (You can find he registrated Eschatology with his own trade mark here in México, and has its own home page which you can find in spanish by the name Escatologia). Again, Juan del Río (who was a neighbour of mine some years ago) was one of the first students of Mario, but after a while studying, and not been recognized to teach the highest courses, decided to stablish his own school based in Mr. Walters teachings. didnt call his courses Eschatology, but Aplicación Mental (Mental application). Any of both teachers, Mario or Juan del Río, HAVE NOT stablished churches or "cults" So last but not least, the only Eschatology school in México, recognized by the William Walter Foundation is today directed by Bertha Celis (who is my teacher today) neither her hasn't stablished any church or "cult". Mexican school directed by Bertha, has no homepage or publishings or aditions to Mr. Walter's work. I understand this I tell you is not going to be called verifiable because no Eschatology school has publishing records of this story.

Eschatology has only two basic funamentals:

• “Everything is mental”
• “Only the good is real”

First statement been very easy to proof. I can think, then I'm mind, becuase only mind can think. Yes I know you wanna say: No. My brain thinks!, but to sustain that you would have to call your brains: mind. Second statement has to be reasoned more carefully: 1+1=2 right? if so, then its good, then 1+1=2 good?, lets see: 1+1=3 wrong!, so evil, then unreal!. As this discussion page is only to clear the subject of the article referred, I'm not after your aproval to this truth.

Mind been the only cause is easy to be proved in that even to open my own hand, I must think it before.

In chapter 8 of The Sickle, Mr. Walter states that "New Thought" teachings are similar to Eschatology Metaphysics, except they dont stand on the point to they call themselves Cause. I find this simmilitudes pretty easy to understand if you search "New thought" "New Age" and "Christian Science" back into the Phineas P. Quimby School, where some followers, Horatio Dresser and wife, called P.P. Quimby "The Father of New Thought", as same as some students of Warren Felt Evans (P.P. Quimby's student) called him "The father of New Age". As you'll find, Mary Baker Eddy was one of P. P. Quimby's students to, before she organized Christian Science. As Mr. Walter's Eschatology derives from this line of thought, their ought to be some correspondences.

To close this long letter to you both, I want to state that my only purpossal on trying to present this comments to you, is that which I told you some letters ago. As I find Wikipedia one of the best webtools anyone can ever use in studying. I find too, that the original presentation of this article wasn't so near and clear to the truth that Eschatology teaches. I think, that the help that you both gave me polishing it in ist current presentation will help the one that searches for the truth Eschatology teaches, will not be misguided.

Thank you friends

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.145.215 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for your comments. Do you mean that with the exception of Bertha Celis all Mexican teachers (including Mario Estrada) have left the Eschatology foundation and that only Mrs. Celis is a loyal teacher? This would mean that thousands of Mexican Eschatology students have left the main United States foundation. Am I right?

If this is the scenario the schism is notable. Do you want to include a section about it? —Cesar Tort 17:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello: Cesar Sorry I forgotten to sign my last letter. I find it NOT NECESSARY to include this schism story. This has happened even since Mr. Walter's days. Bertha Celis is the "director" recognized by the board of USA Directors for México; In this "school" if you call it so, there are arround 350 Graduated teachers. But the Mario Estrada "school", which has a great group of followers to, mainly teaches the same. The "schism" was only a misunderstanding between him and the last Board, and oftenly you find students of "his" school been accepted by "our" school with no rejection, and vice-versa. About the Mental Aplicattion school created by Juan del Río, in his writings Mr. Walter expresses that if someone wants to make his own school because has another idea to teach to others, do not use the name Eschatology, use your own trade mark, be honest and dont say its your own discovery as he recognized Mrs. Eddy re-discoverer of the Christian Science, and to mention the credit Mr. Walter has in your enlightenment. I believe, in what I have read by Juan del Río, he did his work following all this intructions. The words expressed by Mr. Walter: "If they aren´t against us, they are with us"

I apreciatte all your help to present this article. Jose L Martinez Damian) 22 September 2006

Thanks for the info, José. I am surprised since I lost contact with eschatologists many years ago.

By the way, if you want to contact me directly by e-mail (see my user page) you will have to register as a Wikipedia user since Wikipedia policies do not allow us to post our e-mails in these pages. Also, it is recommended, though not necessary, to log in if you want to become a regular contributor to Wikipedia. —Cesar Tort 19:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)