Talk:Esopus Creek

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Esopus Creek/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 14:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

It's a long one, so it'll probably take me awhile to get all the way through. Hog Farm _Bacon 14:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• "It divided the creek into an upper stretch, mostly a wild mountain stream, and a lower stretch closer to the Hudson that gradually becomes more estuarine" - Weird change of tense here
  •  Fixed Probably because everyone talks about "before" and "after" the reservoir was built. Daniel Case (talk) 02:31, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Course

• First paragraph here is uncited
  •  Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 02:18, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Winnisook Lake to Big Indian

• "At the source it is crossed by a small wooden footbridge" - Map confirms the crossing, but not that it is wooden, small, or a footbridge. The image confirms this, but this information still needs to be cited inline

I think WP:OI says that an image is adequate enough. Daniel Case (talk) 02:31, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Cite the image inline, then. I've seen (and personally passed) GAs with image citations. The inline is needed to make it clear where it's coming from. Hog Farm _Bacon 02:46, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• " dropping a thousand feet (305 m) in its first mile (1.6 km) with an average slope of 13 percent" - I'm finding the 13%, but the rest of this is pretty dubious. The rest of the information seems to be coming from the chart in Figure 2.3. According to Google, 1000 ft is about 300 meters, but the chart only shows a drop of about 200 meters in the most obvious range there. Since the chart is measured in 5-mile intervals, it's also a little dicey to say that that drop in only in 1 mile; it looks a touch more than a fifth of the interval to me.

Elsewhere it's stated that it's 26 miles from the lake to the reservoir, so I assumed that the graf reflects that, and I rounded up in assessing the total drop. I have replaced it with Ed Van Put's 169 ft/mile figure from his book and expanded that to three miles, as it seems to be more in accord with the graph. Daniel Case (talk) 03:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• "the uppermost being 30-foot (9.1 m) Otter Falls" - The 30-foot height is not mentioned in the source.

 Fixed I think I had put that in based on other sources, with the expectation of being able to visit the falls myself and take some pictures/video when I went up there in July. I wish I'd read this blog post first; I could actually have found them (they're on private property and while I'm sure from that post it seems the owner may not, or may not be able to, keep people from going to the falls, I'm sure that s/he avoids publicizing their location or making it easier to get there so as to make any attractive-nuisance suit more defensible). Next summer, or maybe even this weekend, as we are getting some rain and I bet the leaves are at or near peak. Daniel Case (talk) 03:09, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• "as it receives Giant Ledge Stream from the north, draining that peak and Panther Mountain" - Unclear what "that peak" is

Giant Ledge itself. Reworded.

• "and Panther Mountain, the former meteor crater" - The map this is sourced to doesn't confirm that Panther Mountain is a former meteor crater.

 Fixed Moved the source for that up.

• "Bending past more braided sections and bars, the Esopus reaches the small former hamlet of Oliverea 0.6 mi (1 km) further north. Here McKenley Hollow Road crosses, in a section with retaining walls on either side of the channel," - Only the second half of this is supported by the source map

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• "Haynes and Balsam mountains" - Proper names, so capitalize Mountains

I learned how to write and copy edit the old school way, under which the common parts of a toponym referring to a natural feature, state highway or political subdivision (among others), the generic part of a toponym, is never capitalized when used in the plural, on the grounds that plural usage is inherently generic unless it's actually in the place name. It seems they did try to resolve this once; I don't think a consensus was reached and in any event neither MOS:CAPS nor MOS:PLURAL have anything to say to this. Daniel Case (talk) 03:25, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• "in a section with retaining walls on either side of the channel,[11] Another 500 ft (150 m) to the north - Full stop, not a comma.

 Fixed

• Is there a reason you didn't link Haynes Mountain? Based on those topo maps, it seems to be the right peak.

 Fixed It is, actually. I just didn't realize we had an article about it. Daniel Case (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Big Indian to the Portal

• "the Esopus turns east and crosses under New York State Route 28, which it will closely parallel all the way to Ashokan Reservoir," - Weird tense switch

@Daniel Case: - Looks like this one's the only point left unaddressed. Get this, and it's a GA. Hog Farm _Bacon 04:11, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 04:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

• "meandering gently along the circular route around Panther" - Unclear what Panther is

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 17:05, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "paralleled by Creekside Drive on its north" - Source suggests it's spelled Creek Side Drive

 Fixed I thought Google was wrong, but I checked the signage on Street View and indeed I was wrong. Daniel Case (talk) 17:29, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "over its next mile to where the 18-mile (29 km) Shandaken Tunnel" - Given that the source map doesn't show the other end of the Shandaken Tunnel, you need another source to support the 18-mile length.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 18:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Big upper Esopus

• Link Garfield Mountain

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "Three miles (4.8 km) downstream, the creek turns to the south for another mile before turning east where Woodland Creek, the largest right tributary of the Esopus, flows in from the south following the east side of the former Panther crater wall, from its headwaters on Wittenberg Mountain, just east of where Woodland Valley Road crosses. Another 0.8 miles (1.3 km) in that direction, the Esopus reaches Phoenicia, the first major settlement along its course. Route 28 crosses again just west of where the stream receives Stony Clove Creek from the north, where it drains southern Greene County. The creek is now 60–100 feet (18–30 m) wide" - Source for all this is dead
• Link Romer Mountain

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Mount Pleasant, Ulster County, New York is the Mount Pleasant link you want; the current link leads to a place in NYC

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "It then crosses under Mount Pleasant Road and, 800 feet (240 m) downstream, Route 28, for the last time above the reservoir" - The street view map doesn't support that it's the last Route 28 crossing above the reservoir. Another source is needed for that.

 Fixed New map source added. Daniel Case (talk) 05:09, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• I find this section oddly named, since "Big upper Esopus" is mentioned nowhere in the section.

Well, the reason for this is mentioned back in the first graf of the section, but because apparently we can't assume when we write these things that everybody will be reading from start to finish I reiterated why it's called that and added a source. Daniel Case (talk) 04:58, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Woodland Creek link takes me to a creek in Washington state
  •  Fixed420Traveler (talk) 06:52, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

More to come tomorrow, this is as far as I'm gonna get today. Hog Farm _Bacon 01:39, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Ashokan Reservoir to Kingston

• "the main stem of the Esopus flows out of the reservoir's spillway The reservoir" - Need a sentence break after spillway

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Spillway is overlinked in consecutive sentences

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "bending east southeast and crossing under Route 209 a thousand feet downstream" - Provide the feet to meters conversion

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 17:20, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "of the city of Kingston, the largest settlement along the creek," - While Kingston is comparatively large on the map to the other places, this single map itself does not support that it is the largest settlement along the creek.

I added a note with cites to census data to support that. Daniel Case (talk) 04:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Kingston to Saugerties

• Link Ulster to Delaware

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "Another 1,500 feet (460 m) downstream, a bridge along the abandoned Ulster & Delaware right-of-way crosses the Esopus. The stream takes a long curve to the north and back southeastward over its next half-mile to where it crosses under the New York State Thruway just south of Exit 19, " - Not supported by the law source, which is concerned with the park boundary, so it only mentions the Esopus in connection with that boundary.

 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 17:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• "buried culvert just below where Route 28, now concurrent with Interstate 587, crosses the creek for the last time"- Map does not establish that this is the last crossing.

 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 05:24, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• "The Esopus bends to the north and meanders parallel to the Thruway" - This information seems repetetive to information given in more detail in the next paragraph.

 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 05:24, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• "hundred miles (160 km) north of its mouth in New York City.[46] at Saugerties Light.[41]" - Drop the period after City

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "At the end of this reach, just southeast of the village of Saugerties, the Esopus receives its last tributary, Tannery Brook, from the north, turns east and enters the village. A half-mile of meandering past some marshy flats on the south side, a bridge carries Route 9W and New York State Route 32 over the stream, its last crossing. Below the bridge it flows over 25 ft (7.6 m) Cantine Dam. It bends north, then south, and returns to the east, as docks and structures abound on either side. After a half-mile the Esopus empties into the Hudson, just over a hundred miles (160 km) north of its mouth in New York City.[46] at Saugerties Light.[41]" - Make it clear that most of this is sourced to ref 41, not to ref 46. Also, I had to tab through a bunch of quadrant maps to get to the parts of the river described here, as the url linked takes me all the way back to Lake Katrine.

 Fixed I gave this portion of the course its own TopoQuest cite. Daniel Case (talk) 17:32, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Watershed

• Note C needs a citation

 Done 420Traveler (talk) 22:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Natural history

• "Later, the crater began to fill in with silt and became a crater lake, as the delta uplifted into a single plateau, the stream bed began to form along the heavily jointed and weaker shale and sandstone above the buried rim of the crater wall" - It feels like a sentence break between lake and as would be more natural than the present comma.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

1704-1885

• " In the meantime permanent settlement of the Esopus" - Comma after meantime

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

1885-1915

• "The legislation became Article 14 of the state constitution nine years later," - Link state constitution to Constitution of New York

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "By that era most of the easily accessible woodlands had been harvested. In combination with technological advances in some fields that eliminated the need for the raw materials of the forest, most of the industries that had made such an impact on the region in the early 19th century declined. In their place a new one arose, mountain tourism, giving the newly affluent of the Gilded Age a place to connect with nature and get away from hot cities in the summer months." - Entire paragraph lacks a citation

 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 05:39, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• Link the various types of trout, since we have articles at least from brook trout and rainbow trout

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• "aggressive rainbows would displace the native brooks[9]:129" - period at the end of the sentence

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

1915-1973

• " The former was particularly promising as a water source since the weather station at the Winnisook Club on Slide Mountain, the north slopes of which are in the creek's watershed, gets 63 inches (1,600 mm) of precipitation annually, the highest average annual rainfall in the state." - Are the currently reported rainfall rates really comparable to 100 years ago situations? The climate has changed quite a bit since then ...

Good thing you brought that up, as it led me into some sources I hadn't used as much, like David Stradlin's book, to review the actual, complicated history of how the city made that decision, at first putting out a report that really found every reason not to use the Esopus and pay the Ramapo Water Company its requested fees. In that report John Ripley Freeman says explicitly on p. 425 that he could not find any weather or hydrological data for the stream and its valley, so he based his estimate that it could deliver no more than 100 million gallons a day on the least conservative guess he could come up with. So it would seem that rainfall played no part in the city's decision because they simply didn't know what those numbers were.

Later, when the legislature had revoked Ramapo's rights, the city suddenly changed its mind and suddenly the softness of the water was of the utmost concern.

So I'll be doing a little more rewriting. Daniel Case (talk) 06:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done now. Daniel Case (talk) 00:00, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• "City engineers had taken note of the clays and silts on the beds and banks of the Esopus to cloud the water for long periods of time after heavy rain." - Seems to me that a word is missing in this sentence

 Fixed A few, actually, as it turned out. Daniel Case (talk) 06:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

1974-2010

• " two trout kills along the Esopus that DEC attributed to the Portal discharges led to anger at the city" - What's DEC?

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Go ahead and link umbrella organization, even though that's articles in very bad shape

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• This whole section keeps bouncing between past and present tense in a confusing manner. Can this be cleaned up a bit?

 Fixed Changed the tense in the first graf and put that one describing the regulations into an endnote.

• "Catskill Waters and the other organizations next worked to prevent the Power Authority of the State of New York (PASNY) from building a pumping station to feed an nearby artificial lake and hydroelectric plant on Schoharie Reservoir," - When did this begin? The 1987 ending figure needs a beginning for comparison

 Fixed And changed the sources a bit, too. Daniel Case (talk) 05:34, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• "the Coldbrook gauge recorded a maximum discharge of 55,200 cubic feet (1,560 m3) per second, the third worst flood in the stream's recorded history." - I'm not seeing where the third-worst figure is. Also, if it's correct, number two should be mentioned in the article, as the 1996 figure is lower, with only the 1980 figure being mentioned in the article as higher than this.

 Fixed I added a cite to page 9, where the USGS report says that "The peak water-surface elevation and discharge recorded during the April 2–3, 2005, storm at the U.S. Geological Survey stream-gaging station on the Esopus Creek at Cold Brook, N.Y. were the third highest elevation and discharge since the station was put into operation in 1914." The table on page 20 gives us the data for the 1980 and 1951 floods, which were higher. Daniel Case (talk) 05:48, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• "The Mount Marion gauge recording what is still its maximum ever amount at 30,500 cubic feet per second (860 m3/s), an 80-year flood," - Two issues here. Once, recording should be in the past tense, and the source is from 2007, and there have been several major hurricanes that hit New York since then, so it can't be assumed that the 2007 figures are still relevant, 13 years later. Especially dubious given the effects of Irene

 Fixed Added USGS source that shows 30,500 cubic feet per second is still the maximum. 420Traveler (talk) 06:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I should add to that that that being the worst flood on the lower Esopus is still relevant, since as I noted above the reservoir basically recreates the lower stream, so a bad flood on the upper stream is not necessarily going to be as bad below the reservoir.

Weather in the Catskills is also different from weather near the Hudson ... mountains make their own weather, as they say. I have plenty of personal experience with heavy rain up there and none at all at home on the same day. Irene was also exceptional as no one had expected its worst impact in New York to be that far inland instead of on the coast, which is usually the pattern with hurricanes. Daniel Case (talk) 06:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

• "whose recurrence interval was estimated to be 30 years,.[71]:11" - Drop the period.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 17:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

2011-present

• "It has, but Ulster County would still prefer it be included in the FAD" - Anything happen on this front since 2016

Actually, it was approved in '17. I found sources (why didn't I find them in the spring?) and will be putting that in presently. Daniel Case (talk) 05:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:30, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• Did Hurricane Sandy tear anything up in the Esopus watershed? I'm from the Midwest, so I don't remember which parts of New York that one hit

Sandy was actually fairly mild inland, even though we were all bracing for the worst. This was about the most severe damage I saw anywhere in the area I live in. Since it came straight at the coast, it was the city, Long Island and the Jersey Shore that took it on the chin.

Irene's damage was more the result of the flooding—the hurricane's cyclonic arms picked up a great deal of moisture off the coast of New England and then dumped it far inland in Vermont, the Adirondacks and, at the lower end of that band, the Catskills ... I have never seen the region so badly affected by anything, which is probably not surprising since I've only lived nearby for about 20 years, but people who've lived most of some very long lives there can say the same thing. Daniel Case (talk) 05:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Boating

• " They only run the Esopus when the stream gauge at Cold Brook near the put-in records water levels from 5–6.25 feet (1.52–1.91 m). " - Is there even a verb in this sentence?

"Run" Daniel Case (talk) 05:33, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Still feels that there's something missing. Maybe a word between Brook and near? Hog Farm _Bacon 15:34, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• " Marinas on the estuary in Saugerties shelter craft used on the Hudson." - Citation needed

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 22:22, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• "Some residents complaining about its local impact[62] and its negative effect on fishing (Other anglers are not as bothered by tubers, pointing out most tubing takes place during daylight hours rather than the crepuscular times at which trout are most active) - 1.) Complain, not complaining. 2.) Turn the parenthetical into its own sentence.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 05:33, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Water quality

• "is rated Class B, suitable for primary and secondary contact recreation and fishing,[107] Weed growth along the banks between the mouth" - Period, not a comma.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Turbidity

• "although populations had been trending down for two years before;[123] A fourth study that year which also considered" - Period, not a semicolon.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Conservation and management

• This whole paragraph is uncited.

 Fixed Not anymore. Daniel Case (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Lower Esopus

• "Local officials praised the move but said they would keep working for DEP to be more conscious of its impact on downstream property owners[134]" - This sentence lacks ending punctuation

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Tributaries

• Maben Hollow Brook is listed as a tributary, but is not mentioned anywhere else in the article.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 23:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

• The average discharge for Mount Marion is different than the figure given in the body

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 23:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Not seeing where the elevation at the mouth is cited, although I may have missed it

Do you mean it should be cited inline in the infobox? My understanding is that usually we leave that to the article, and I notice that the source elevation isn't cited in the infobox either. Daniel Case (talk) 18:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: - As in I haven't found where in the prose the 0ft elevation for the mouth is cited. I've seen where the 2,660ft source elevation is cited, but I'm not seeing where in the prose the elevation of the mouth is opened. Maybe I'm just missing where it's located. Hog Farm _Bacon 20:28, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done I found NOAA's tidal reports page (something I never knew I could find online; thank you for making me do this) for Turkey Point, a couple of miles downriver, and put in a note explaining that because of the Hudson's tides the exact elevation varies.

• Seems odd that when you list towns in the infobox, you don't list Kingston, the largest one

This is the list of towns it passes through, Kingston is a city. 420Traveler (talk) 23:11, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I tried to fix this by putting in a separate city field, but the template seems to be limited to five levels of subdivision. Daniel Case (talk) 18:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Addendum: I just decided to parenthetically add it to the "towns" list instead, along with Phoenicia and Saugerties. Daniel Case (talk) 17:24, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• Cantine Falls is only mentioned in the infobox

 Fixed It's now mentioned in the course section, where the stream flows over the eponymous dam a mile upstream from its mouth. Daniel Case (talk) 18:04, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Sources

• Ostapczuk is published by a print-on demand company that has been described as non-selective in what it publishes. That source fails WP:SPS, and even if it didn't, it'd need page numbers.

 Fixed I have removed all the references to his book and replaced them others more reliable, in some cases amending the text so it is better supported, and in the first case just getting rid of the supported text entirely since I don't think there would be another source (ahem) and it's not essential. Daniel Case (talk) 01:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• What makes flyfishingconnection.com a reliable source?

 Fixed Someone else put it in, and you're right, there's nothing about it that would suggest it is/was, so I have removed all the references and the text that depended on them. Daniel Case (talk) 19:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 54, the Evers book, has a set page number in the main citation, but then you use the rp template to insert specific page numbers. Since you cite different pages with the single Evers citation, drop the p=10 parameter from the citation.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 01:41, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 105 ("Esopus Creek (0202000609)") is dead

 Fixed Added archivelink. Daniel Case (talk) 01:47, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 109 (""USGS 01362500 ESOPUS CREEK AT COLDBROOK NY") appears to be modified daily, so just leave the date parameter empty.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 00:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• The The history of Ulster County, New York book needs the publishing location (Kingston, NY). Also, does it have an OCLC? (Check worldcat)

 Done Changed the URL to go right to the cited page, and found the OCLC (it was right there on the page). Daniel Case (talk) 01:56, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 15 (Esopus Creek Google Map) needs an accessdate.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 02:01, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 32 ( "A Journey Through the Lower Esopus Watershed") needs page numbers as for verification, as 52 pages is a bit long to cite the whole range.

They're cited inline using {{rp}}. Daniel Case (talk) 04:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• Does Schoonmaker have an OCLC?

 Fixed as I didn't just put the OCLC number I found into the cite, I changed it to {{cite book}} and otherwise brought it up to code. Daniel Case (talk) 04:36, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

• A lot of these titles are in ALL CAPS, this is discouraged

 Fixed Why copying and pasting isn't always such a great idea. Daniel Case (talk) 00:16, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 98 ( "Fishing and Fishing By Boat") is dead

 Fixed The DEC page at the end of the graf is still live and a valid source for all that info. Daniel Case (talk) 00:32, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 101 (Esopus Creek Whitewater) contains the text "This information is my opinion only and may not reflect actual conditions. It is based on my usually hazy memory, and should not be used to decide whether you or your guides are qualified to run the river." So yeah, that's not RS. Also, it lacks a publisher

 Fixed found a better source for the same info and was able to add some more interesting and relevant facts. Daniel Case (talk) 01:43, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 102 (Esopus Creek Conservatory Newsroom) is dead

 Fixed with the archived link. Daniel Case (talk) 01:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• All of those USGS streamflow pages are updated daily, so the publishing date is meaningless. The accessdate is sufficient in this case.

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 00:27, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 118 ( "Esopus Creek News 2011 fall-winter - Ashokan Watershed Stream Management Program") appears to be dead

 Fixed with archived version. Daniel Case (talk) 02:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Volume III, 177. What in the world is this referencing? Completely nonstandard and unclear format. Rewrite this short citation.

 Fixed How I used to do things like this before we found better ways. Daniel Case (talk) 02:07, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• The date for the DePalma NYT citation is incorrect

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 00:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 132 ( "Esopus Creek Lower Basin Watershed Conference, 1. Stabilizing the Stream and the Communities") is dead

 Fixed with archived version. Daniel Case (talk) 02:43, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 134 (Daily Freeman) is dead

 Fixed again, it was archived. Daniel Case (talk) 02:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 140 needs the publisher

 Fixed 420Traveler (talk) 00:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Images

• Seems weird to have the Irene satellite image in the 1915-1973 section.

This image is used here because this section is describing how the reservoir is divided into two sections to contain sediments in the upper segment where they are allowed to settle, which the image shows.420Traveler (talk) 02:34, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

+1 I know it would be intuitive to have it in the section devoted to the storm, but it does demonstrate how the reservoir worked as designed following the heaviest storm in the upper creek's history. Daniel Case (talk) 18:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so I believe that's about it. In all honesty, I think this is the largest number of issues I've brought up in a single GA review. Hog Farm _Bacon 03:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

And this is probably the largest article I've ever been involved in a GA review of. Please bear with us (I hope 420Traveler is able to get involved and help out as he did with West Kill); it is in all likelihood going to take more than a week to address everything on this punch list. Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I will be able to start helping out later today. 420Traveler (talk) 06:47, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Yep, I'll leave this open as long as need be. Ping me when you're done or if you have any questions. Hog Farm _Bacon 14:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

New lead image?

Current lead image

During the GA nomination and review, I went and took additional pictures of the creek. One of them was the same view, the picture I took over a decade ago, that we currently use as the lead image.

What that view looks like now

1

I took that same view again this past summer. I don't think it's as interesting now due to the changes Irene forced on the channel.

So, I think it's time we reconsider what we use as the lead image. I admit it will probably be one from the upper creek; those look inherently more photogenic (Or by "the upper creek", I should clarify that I mean the portion of the stream where it's rockier and shallower, including not just the upper stream but, per the article, down to just above the Marbletown town park). That's the Esopus people fish in and kayak and tube on; that's the one with the more severe flooding issues. In other words, it's the one the article discusses at greater length.

I am also ruling out any images of the small upper Esopus, above the Birch Creek confluence; the stream's not wide enough there to be representative of the whole stream, as picturesque as it may otherwise be.

I have several candidates in mind (all, granted, my own work):

Other possible lead images

From Hurley Mountain Road, the closest you can get to that change in the underlying geology. Technically part of the lower stream, but looks like the upper creek

A representative if otherwise unremarkable stretch of the stream near Phoenicia, photographed on a lovely summer day. But I wish there hadn't been so much lens flare, and that the far bank wasn't in so much shade

From Woodland Valley Road bridge near Phoenicia. I know it's in the article already, but ...

I have to admit I like the last one the more I think about it. It breaks my personal rule that all views of rivers should be upstream, but rules were made to be broken. I mean, you look at this image and you want to be part of the scene somehow. You want to join those anglers. You'd be OK drinking water from this stream down in the city. And I love Mt. Tremper in the background ... nowhere near high enough to be a required peak for the 3500 Club, but you'd never guess that from this image.

Anybody else have anything to say (It doesn't have to be one of the ones up there)? Daniel Case (talk) 19:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you on your choice Daniel. That picture shows everything that the stream is about. Shows the nature as well as the recreational value.420Traveler (talk) 14:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I also like the last one. It covers just about everything in the article: the natural appearance, fishing, woodlands, and the mountains. It's just about perfect for the lead image Hog Farm _Bacon 16:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

OK, we have consensus IMO. Will make the change. Daniel Case (talk) 06:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)