Talk:Eternal Sun/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sources

These are the sources to date:

• AQHA: Eternal Sun
• Eternal Sun Quarter Horse - Pedigree
• The Story of the Statue - Howard Farms
• Eternal Sun - Ace of Clubs Quarter Horses
• Harold Howard Obituary | Legacy.com
• [Cowboy with the horse "Eternal Sun" - Digital Library]
• MQHA Hall of Fame
• GET OF SIRE DETAIL © 2006, AQHA. All Rights Reserved.
• A Shot Of Black Mito Zip It, Black APHA Paint Gelding, 2016 Flashy Black and White Gelding in Michigan - DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 2066118
• Horse Profile for Eternal Sun | Equibase is Your Official Source for Thoroughbred Racing Information
• Eternal Sun Facebook page
• Eternal Sun - Regal Paints - Lots of information on the horse - covers most everything that is on the Facebook page
• AQHA: B.F. Phillips Jr.
• quarter-horse racing | sport | Britannica.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawnleelynn (talk • contribs) 23:19, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

DYK Suggestions

Did you know:

• DYK that hall of fame horse Eternal Sun's owner purchased him with an IOU written on the corner torn from the page of the seller's sale magazine?

Okay, WAF, I'm glad you like this DYK too. The article wasn't brimming with hook ideas from my perspective. But this one seemed pretty good! I shall fill out the DYK. This will be my third one to date. Well, there maybe could have been one or two others. Thanks. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Structure

Since you have done bulls but not horses til now, here are some tips on the structure of the article, based on the horse GAs and FAs. They're typically in chronological order, so in this case we'll put his race career before his Texas breeding career, then the sale to the Howards and the rest of his life. This might be one long section, more likely two sections, or possibly three depending on how much content there is once the writing starts. The race section might be fairly long, because we may have to give a short explanation of the difference between QH sprint racing and the longer Thoroughbred races most people think of when they hear horse racing. His headstone should be in there too, and we can quote the inscription. Then probably do a section on his offspring and what they accomplished, and at some point list his awards including the HOF inclusion. I didn't write anything yet, I figured you would want to start it, and then I can jump in. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 18:00, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I didn't see this until just now. I had too many windows open I think. Anyway, where did you see his headstone? I couldn't find his death date. I was trying to follow the horse articles listed in the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame, there are several GA and FA articles in there. There is some variation on how they are done based on different factors but they are all AQUA horses so it helped some. The bulls I try to do chronologically for the most part, but I think you are right, there are some things in the bull articles are not always chronological. I am adding the Facebook link to the horse which I forgot originally. I know we don't use that for source. But it can help guide us to find sources to support what it in there. Many of the details in the story on the Facebook page are already supported by the AQUA article on the horse. I will go in now and try to do some more writing. I can always do the pedigree any time, it's just copying text. I know his daughter Eternal Linda is in the hall of fame with him too and was bred by Howard and died on the farm. Well, this helps guide me some more. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:15, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I made a couple of minor edits. Yeah, the biggest part is chronological but in some cases you can go out of order a little, like discussion of the major offspring typically goes after the death section. Pedigrees almost always go on the bottom because it's nice to know what the grandparents and great-grandparents were, but most people want to read the text first. I might do a couple more minor edits, but it looks good! White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 20:36, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly Thanks for looking it over and making some edits. Your encouragement in the beginning and today made all the difference. I doubt I would have felt I could take the article on if you had not encouraged me and offered to oversee in the first place. After looking over your edits, I noticed some mistakes I had made and fixed them, as well as a couple of improvements I could make to two citations. I just did what montanabw always tells me to do when writing an article, copy style and content from existing good and featured articles of the same type of content - so I kept the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame article open in a tab and used it to go to different horse articles in there.

I seem to write the most earlier in the day and then get tired in the late afternoon and evening. It's more taxing on me to write this article than the bull articles because it's harder. I know the bull subjects much better. With the horse, I have to work harder. But it's a good exercise for me. I have more content to add tomorrow. My style is to write more than I need and then to make it more concise. I also usually do at least some rewriting usually. Just so you know that's how I work. Sometimes I also have to do some rewriting because I've paraphrased things too closely to the source. I think I've done that a bit here, so will look at that tomorrow. I also use the Earwig tool at the end to make sure I caught everything.

You mentioned something about a headstone? And, also I can't find the horse's year of death. Did you happen upon it? If not, I have searched and given up. Do you know somewhere we might locate it? Also, do you think any of the photos would be fair use for the article? Just thinking out loud about that, not in a rush. Ok, I think that's all I wanted mention for now. If I think of anything else, I can always come back later. Thanks again! I am really surprised I got a lot of the horsey facts right. Oh yeah, I just remembered, that Pedigree table does not play nice in Visual Editor. It keeps losing data. I finally had to work in the Source Editor. And that probably explains why I got some data messed up in it. So, yeah, there's that. Okay then. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 03:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The headstone thing was that in one of the AQHA articles, they said Howard buried Eternal Sun with a headstone that said something like, "Here lies the horse that changed my life". I can add that in as a quote; I think it's worth including. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:18, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh that! Yes, I wish we could see it. I was thinking of one that would have dates on it, which it probably does only we can't see them. Was hoping for a death date. Yes, I was definitely thinking to include that quote, go for it. I haven't gotten around to editing in this article today, I'm not sure if I will. Maybe later this afternoon. Thanks! :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly Hi, no big rush. I made three sets of edits yesterday and one set today. I think it's getting pretty close to done. It's ready for you to look at it again. I rearranged the sections a bit. I think it's a bit clearer now. But let me know what you think. And maybe not sure about some of the wording in the intro section. It seems awkward to me. And I added his AQHA registration number like I saw done in another AQHA horse article. Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I think you could safely go live now. It looks really good. I made a couple of minor edits and added another link or two, but I think you have all the bases covered. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly Good pick up on the duplicate age and some nice wiklinks. Right, going live doesn't mean I can't continue to fix any issues. So, if you are sure, let's go for it. montanabw usually moves an article for me and then patrols it to be on the safe side. Or, I can move it at a time when I know you'll be around to patrol it. Let me know which works for you. It's no rush. Thanks again for the reviews; it really helped! :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:50, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm about to log off, but probably will be on sometime tomorrow afternoon and can patrol it if you move it then. Or Montanabw may get to it first. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly Tomorrow afternoon is fine, no rush like I said. Maybe I'll copy edit it some more. I haven't asked montanabw about this one. This has been totally our project. Just ping me, I'll be around all afternoon. Thanks. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:21, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly After we finished talking, I recalled that it was time for me to get ready to leave for an outing. So, it was better you couldn't do it then anyway... I lose track of time when I'm editing sometimes. So, anyway, just move & patrol whenever, you don't need me to do that. After that, we can both add whatever categories we can think of. I know there are some AQHA categories in the articles I've been looking at. And I'm sure you probably know of some I don't. There won't be any need to add to a disambiguation page. You might also know of any list articles, that kind of stuff. I'll look at my new article list as well-I found it helpful awhile ago to make up a list of things to do when I add a new article to mainspace. Ok, looking forward to this weekend myself. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 03:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, I am on right now if you are. Either you can move it and I can patrol, or I can move so it won't need to be patrolled. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 20:14, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly Hey! Watching golf playoff, just checked my email. Since you are here and I am around. I'll just move it and you can patrol it. Thanks. I made one suggestion for a DYK in a new section below, see what you think and please feel free to suggest any others. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:49, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't see a patrol notice, did somebody else patrol it? If it wasn't patrolled I would be seeing the notice. I like the dyk hook. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 20:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly This happened before. No one has touched the article but us. For miniature bull riding, I asked you to review the article and approve it but said you couldn't see a patrol notice. But a few weeks later, someone reviewed it. I don't understand why this is happening. It has happened at least three times. You patrolled List of ProRodeo Hall of Fame inductees for me in Userspace. It didn't look like it needed patrolled once moved into mainspace. And yet a couple months later someone reviewed it and approved it. It has also happened with an article that montanabw approved. Weird. Isn't there a list of of new pages needed approved we can check? Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

White Arabian Filly montanabw I went to this page called "New Pages Feed": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:NewPagesFeed and selected "unreviewed pages" cause it was only showing "reviewed". Reviewed was only listing Wyoming Pioneer Association. Three pages showed up as unreviewed: Red Wolf (bull), Bones (bull) and Eternal Sun. You can go to this page and select a filter to see unreviewed pages by a certain username (me) and then review them from there, at least it appears that's what you can do. I can't review pages so I can't actually do that. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

montanabw I pinged you because we can't figure out why the article does not say it needs reviewed when WAF looks at it, yet it shows up in the NPP. No one touched Eternal Sun besides her and I. And she hasn't touched it since I moved it to mainspace so how could not need reviewed/patrolled? The NPP should be right but why isn't there someplace in the article (and the other two) that say whether they are reviewed. Those two older articles I could swear were patrolled. It's a little mystery. Thanks. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Picture suggestion

Do a web search for 'Eternal Sun and Owner Harold Howard postcard' and you will find what is probably a copyright-free image. US copyright law is such that if there was no copyright notice (which there isn't on the front or back of this), and it was published during certain times, and copyright was not claimed after the fact, it's passed into public domain. Wikipedia:Public domain#Published works explains the dates and details. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Bri

Montanabw is looking at this picture currently-see link. It has a fair use policy published there with the picture. My thinking is that Wikipedia will not meet it though but she's better at this than I am. I have found your picture and bookmarked it because it may very well come in handy. This linked one is at least useful for External links if nothing else, where I have it now. There are very few pictures when I have searched before. [1] dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Aha, well if you do upload the fair use image from UNT make sure to upload it to ENWP under WP:NFCC not Commons. What you usually get pushback on for the fair use stuff is "somebody, somewhere could find a PD image" even if you have done the legwork and say that it ain't so. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Bri Good advice that I will keep in mind! :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm also making some inquiries at Commons' village pump if the postcard is usable. An admin there already told me it looks OK to him. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:55, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Bri Why, that's so nice of you! That would be so great if I could add a picture (or even two) to this article. I have really become quite fond of this horse. Not because I wrote it with WAF's help. I just like the horse, I did when I first encountered him and it's why I queried WAF if she thought I could write it, it wasn't too big of a subject, but still notable. Anyway, thanks so much, look forward to anything else you find out. :)) dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:59, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The cutoff for publication without a copyright notice is 1977. Judging by the clothing on the handler, the typeface on the postcard and the buckstitched show halter, we probably have an image taken before then. But, without proof it was published prior to 1977, the horse DID live until 1985. I think I'll upload it as fair use, just to be safe. I like the other body image too, I'll mull this a bit and upload something. Montanabw^(talk) 18:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Montanabw Hey, here's the link for the fair use policy on the UNT digital library site that hosts the picture of the horse: [2]. Just putting it out there, just so you know about, I don't if it means we can't use it though. dawnleelynn^(talk) 19:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Also check out the two pictures on [3] and one on [4]

Long discussion of the first GA attempt which failed

GA Review This review is transcluded from Talk:Eternal Sun/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. Reviewer: Courcelles (talk · contribs) 00:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC) I can take this one on. Shouldn't take me too long to go over. Courcelles (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC) "Eternal Sun was a 1958 sorrel stallion sired by Eternal War and out of Sierra Glitter by Silver King" I got that sentence up to "out of Sierra Glitter by Silver King" where my limited knowledge of horses ran out. Perhaps a rephrase to make that clearer? (I get it from the infobox, but in prose it made no sense) "Before Eternal Sun arrived in Michigan, he was already turning heads." seems a strange way to end a paragraph. Why? According to whom? Not to be too pedantic, but you need an inline citation directly after the quote '"Horses were a lot shorter and stockier," Howard's daughter Mary Kay said. "Eternal Sun had an elegant head and neck and an irresistible charisma. I’ll never forget his eyes: His foals always had his eyes."' "These colts all had exemplary characteristics and disposition." I think that might be a bit of puffery by the source here. "made Carol a winner." We don't refer to people by first name like that. Not sure what makes Ref 3 a reliable source. Don't put the same links you cite as EL's. Image is fine. Courcelles (talk) 00:30, 18 January 2018 (UTC) First of all, thank you for taking this on Courcelles. I created the article with assistance from WAF. She was invaluable as she is an equine expert, and it was my first equine article (not counting rodeo horses - big difference). First item. The line describing Eternal Sun's parentage is standard industry terminology. You can see it in many equine articles. Here's one that uses it a couple times Garrett's Miss Pawhuska. However, I also ask WAF to explain this as she understands it better than I. I changed the sentence about the horse turning heads. Upon reviewing what the source said, this needed changed anyway. Good catch. I add a citation to the quote from Howard's daughter Mary Kay. I changed the wording about the colts so it was more encyclopedic. I changed all instances of Carol to Harris. This was just a silly mistake. I know it's supposed to be last names. On ref 3, WAF can you speak to this one? This ref has done extensive research on the pedigrees of 100s of horses. Regarding the links being cited and in External links. Can you cite a policy that says not to do that? I have done this in other articles do so I am curious to know if this truly against policy or the MOS or such. See WP:ELDUP. Courcelles (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC) Glad the image is good, thank you. It was actually found and suggested to me by a 10+ year editor that helps me out on occasion. Thanks for the review. The next step should come from WAF. dawnleelynn(talk) 18:27, 18 January 2018 (UTC) p.s. WAF, can you take a look at my edits too, to make sure they fully address the reviewer's concerns? Thanks! dawnleelynn(talk) 19:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC) Hi, I'm on now. If the way we refer to his parents is a problem, I can change it to something like, "Eternal Sun was sired by the stallion Eternal War and out of the mare Sierra Glitter; his maternal grandsire was Silver King" to make who they are more obvious. "Sired by" and "out of" are the standard way of describing a horse's parents. Ref 3 is kind of on the line for reliability, but it seems to match up with the others. A lot of sites like that would not be reliable, but sometimes you will find one that has a lot of excellent information and research. There's one called Walkers West I've used in writing Tennessee Walking Horse biographies that's been invaluable for horses that were famous before the computer era. White Arabian Filly Neigh 22:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC) Re the parentage issue, I know it's odd, and reads perfectly well to horse people, but most of our readers (myself included) are not horse enthusiasts, so sometimes we have to write less technically and more to the level of the average intelligent person. As to ref 3, might it be more appropriate as an EL? I'm not seeing anything that is cited to it that you can't get out of your other sources. Courcelles (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2018 (UTC) Regarding Ref 3, the line it is supporting " Eternal Sun was an AQHA Champion 13 times, an AQHA Grand Champion 7 times, and a Reserve Grand Champion 4 times." cannot be found anywhere else, unless I am missing it somewhere? Yes, if you have seen this someplace else, please enlighten me. All of this AQUA info starts to run together, but I pretty much only see info on his progeny. I have searched hard for another source for this information on the Internet. Sources for this horse have been extremely hard to find overall. It's a very important bit of information about him that I have only been able to find on Ref 3. I would just add again that this horse was in his prime before the computer age so things are limited. The year he died, 1985, the first version of Windows was released, and was simply a GUI offered as an extension of Microsoft's existing disk operating system, or MS-DOS. I know about these things as I have been involved in or worked in the software industry all my life. So maybe we need to overlook a rule here as per WP:IAR and accept this source which is an extensive reference of horse pedigrees and AQUA history prior to the computer age. dawnleelynn(talk) 00:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC) That's the problem, there is no IAR when it comes to reliable sourcing at a GA/FA/FL level. Anyways, I want a second opinion on this ref, I'm going to ping @Ealdgyth: as the best authority on horse sourcing I know of. What do you think of this source being used? Courcelles (talk) 14:39, 19 January 2018 (UTC) That's a no go on the source. Give me a bit, I can find the information in a reliable source, but I'm eating breakfast right this moment. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:42, 19 January 2018 (UTC) As for the parentage - check out Go Man Go or Miss Meyers for examples of how to word it to please both horsepeople and non-horsepeople. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 19 January 2018 (UTC) So, I'm going to be a PITA and point out that there is a major source missing from this article. Eternal Sun is profiled in Legends 8: Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares on pages 92- 103. I'm afraid that that source really needs to be incorporated in order for the article to be even minimally considered of GA status. Also - you can't say that he was an AQHA Champion 13 times - AQHA Champion is an award earned from earning a certain number of performance and halter points in AQHA shows and is only awarded once. He may have been named champion of various halter classes - but that is not an AQHA Champion. Nor is there such an award as "AQHA Grand Champion". A horse can be named grand champion of the halter classes at a specific horse show - but never an "AQHA Grand Champion" - AQHA does not award such a title or award. I'm also going to have to say that current ref 8 (The Story of the Statue) is not an RS either. Nor does allbreed pedigree qualify - it's a user-generated site. There are probably some articles in the Quarter Horse Journal on Eternal Sun also - those should be consulted for information. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Just driving by to comment that maybe there is a bit of puffery here in the tone, but Courcelles, phrases such as "Sired by" and "out of" are such a standard way of describing a horse's parents that I hesitate to concur in changing that bit -- just as we don't need to say"port is the left side of the boat" we can use a limited amount of technical language here too. I think having to say "the sire or father of the horse" is kind of silly, but perhaps a work around by a piped link to Glossary of equestrian terms#s for sire and Glossary of equestrian terms#d for dam does the trick without talking down to the reader. Ealdgyth, those "Legends" books are not accessible online nor is the Quarter Horse Journal, as far as I know, so perhaps if it is possible for you to be part of the solution and possibly add info you might have in hardcopy-only sources. We know that Allbreed is problematic (in the same way Imdb or find-a-grave can be), but if the info in the article now IS correct, perhaps tweaking the citation to a more formal database would be adequate. Allbreed isn't necessarily wrong (Sure, sometimes it is... ) but the content does need a cross-check and then a citation tweak from that. Montanabw(talk) 17:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC) No, allbreed fails as a source because it's user-generated. Even if its correct this moment, it can change and thus isn't reliable. And .. frankly, to be quite honest, the Legends books aren't that expensive and are available from libraries. I'm utterly swamped with real work and just don't have time to mess with editing someone else's articles. The Legends books DO have reliable pedigrees in them - they could be used to replace the allbreed stuff. Compared to the cost of some other stuff - buying a Legends book is cheap. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC) They might be available in libraries somewhere, but not where I live. I think we have one of the world's worst libraries. I could order it, but I really don't care about Quarter Horses and would probably never use it again. If you can give the page numbers for the pages that back up the stuff that's referenced to Allbreed and the other thing, I can look up the ISBN and everything else and replace the sources. I've looked through my copies of the QH Journal (maybe 15-20) and Western Horseman (over 150) and can't find anything on him. Still, I am going to say that if they wanted to sell a lot of the Legends books, they'd probably do better to put them on Google Books so people could at least see a little of the content. If I've heard a book is good but don't want to buy it without trying it, I'll read the preview to see if I think it's worth it-- I've read a few pages of a book and decided it was crap before. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:09, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Ealdgyth Just was ready to hit to post the message when I saw WAF was responding. I know a bit about you from my mentor montanabw, as well as, working on your AQUA Hall of Fame horse articles to get the references updated from archive links to the current web site instead. I read the articles while I was working on them. So I am familiar with your work and your expertise is obvious. I have no doubt in my mind as to everything you've said being correct. However, my hands are tied in making some of the changes. I live in a small city, Cheyenne, WY. I looked up that book, and the closest one is located in Big Horn, Colorado, and it's not available for transfer. [5] It's 3 hours away. Also, it runs about $23 on Amazon. But seriously, though. I live on a fixed income. Surely you can have some sympathy in your heart for that? I haven't even bought a book for the many bucking bull and bull rider articles that I work on. Otherwise, things might be different. But seriously, it's a little much just for one horse article. I hope you can see things from my side. And I just saw WAF respond about her library not having it either. White Arabian Filly, same thing regarding libraries. Although we do have some good rodeo books here cause it's Cheyenne. dawnleelynn(talk) 23:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC) I've got you beat, Dawnleelynn, the nearest copy to me is in Dayton, OH. I was hoping it would be somewhere near me to help y'all out, but Dayton is a long ways up I-77 from North Carolina. Looks like we might have to fail this GAN, which is something I've never done before and don't enjoy, but I don't see this being broad in its coverage when we take out the non-RS stuff. Courcelles (talk) 23:32, 19 January 2018 (UTC) I’ve got a husband home on sick leave from hemorrhoid surgery, and my job is doing a release ....while normally I’m happy to help, I just can’t justify it. Perhaps if folks would ask me for help before nominating, it’d be easier...but I really have no time since the spouse is pretty much immobile for the next week...and quite frankly if I’m going to work on horse research...I have about sixteen paying projects that I should be working on. Please don’t try to guilt trip me..next time ask before the article is nom8nated and without the time pressure. But...Eternal Sun is past my normal research period, so anything I’d find in QHJs would be me having to go to the nearest library with a run of the, and spend time on that rather than the paying projects. And quite honestly, the Legends books are cheap compared to the rest of my research library...which I try to pay for with paying horse research. Sorry if I sound crabby, but I just spent 3hours today scheduling TFA when I should have been working on horse research. And then to be wheedled to donate more time...and it’s not just the sourcing the stuff that to all breed with the legends stuff...there is stuff in that article that needs to be in here to be GA, which is probably four or five hours of reading, researching and editing...that’s a big chunk of my free time for Wikipedia...and I have a A-class review I should weigh in on, and I should be do8ng FAC source checks...I just don’t have unlimited time. I’m sorry, but please don’t do the freaking guilt thing. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC) Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) I'm so sorry you took it that way. It was not meant as a guilt trip on my part at all. I was only explaining to you why I cannot physically or financially do these additional additions to the article which are being required. I was perhaps hoping you or even someone else involved in this review might have another idea for how to get these resources. I'm very sorry you are dealing with all those issues. This is only my second Good Article nomination. I think I'll stick to areas I've more expertise in from now on. This is the first horse article I've created (with WAF's very excellent help and not counting expanding rodeo horses). I refuse to get upset about it or have it be a big deal like my first nom. I agree with Courcelles that it is probably best to drop this one for now. Courcelles, Dayton from North Carolina? That's crazy! LOL. I hope things get better for you Ealdgyth or Courcelles, no hard feelings on my side, just a case of things not working out here. Perhaps this article can be fixed down the line without the pressure of a nomination behind it. WAF, I hope you will continue to help me...and I think montanabw will help me as she's able. dawnleelynn(talk) 04:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC) @Courcelles:, I meant that I shouldn't have been so obstinate about Ref 3 before this blew up into trying to trying to find all these offline references, just so I am clear. I was really hoping I could help, given the four ACC universities and other smaller schools within 30 miles of me, I'm not used to being unable to get my hands on something when needed! I'll close this up in a bit. Courcelles (talk) 00:25, 20 January 2018 (UTC) Courcelles, thank you for your work on this article. I really do appreciate it. I'm sorry about the disagreement on the source, I was being too hard-headed. And it was only my second GA review. I have to learn not to hold on so tightly. As for the rest, I think, with some help, these issues can be addressed and at some point later, the article can be nominated again. It should be easier to address with the pressure of the nom behind, like you said. Have a great weekend! dawnleelynn(talk) 04:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC) @Ealdgyth:, if I'm the one you think was guilt tripping you, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it to come across that way and wasn't thinking of that. I was just stating that I don't have the book or access to it. I buy almost all my books used and seldom pay over $3 at most for one, normally $1 or less, because I can read an average novel in about an hour. It'd just be too expensive to buy everything I want because I go through them so fast. By the way, I hope your husband recovers soon. @Courcelles:, I understand what you're saying, and thanks for looking for the source. Like Dawnleelynn, I'm ok with cancelling or failing the review now and trying again later. I was aware of the Legends books before we started, but I've never seen a hard copy of one and didn't know Eternal Sun was profiled in any of them. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:33, 20 January 2018 (UTC) @Ealdgyth: Unlike WAF, I didn't know about the book or ability to get such old issues of the magazine, so I didn't know to ask for help regarding the offline resources before even nominating for a review, but now I do. One thing I did do was check your User page to see if you had this horse in your plans, and a find didn't return him. Anyway, again I was just acknowledging your authority with my reply as well as informing that I couldn't access the sources. WAF and I are talking about how we can possibly find the book. I did find vols 3 and 7 at Murdoch's Home and Ranch Supply online. Possibly they may have the books in the store nearby and I could read them there and take notes or take photos of the requisite pages or some such. Cheyenne being home to Cheyenne Frontier Days, we have several ranch type stores and tack stores that may have the books. Ok, hope all gets better for you. :) dawnleelynn(talk) 04:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Sigh... AQHA really just needs the equivalent of equineline ... a basic parentage verification database that's not user-generated. Even the Arabian association will at least give you sire and dam for free and you can verify from there. Montanabw(talk) 20:14, 22 January 2018 (UTC) The AQHA does have it... but you have to be a member. (We'll leave aside the issue that it has data-entry errors - since one of the "paying projects" i'm working on is a revised and corrected set of early stud books for the AQHA...) If it was just a case of sourcing the pedigree, it wouldn't be a problem for me to do that quickly, but there is a good bit of information in the Legends book that needs to be accessed to make this article GA. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC) I tried a different search late last night at Murdoch's and found the book online. Then I clicked the Find in Store button and it was available in lots of stores in quantities of 1-3 at each one. Murdoch's is a western store, only available in WY, ID, MT, CO, and western NE. I checked again this morning and they were out of the online books. But it did show they were on order for more. Funny. But there were two in the store here according to the website: [6]. I could potentially see if I could photograph the pages if the books are not out in front where all the salespeople and clerk traffic is. Just a thought. It's only a couple miles from here. dawnleelynn(talk) 18:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC) I would try your local library - our local library is part of a lending consortium that pools the libraries in the area so we can get a lot of books that aren't in the local library. If that doesn't work, you may also be able to get it through true Inter Library Loan - my local library is able to get academic books for me from college/university libraries here in my state even though I can't access those databases through our local consortium. It always pays to ask the local librarian for help, not just assume that because it's not in their library catalog you can't get it. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:36, 23 January 2018 (UTC) I posted this earlier [7]. I used the Wyoming Wyldcat system to search all of the libraries (not just our library system) around the area and ended up with the closest copy being in Big Horn, Colorado, and that one not being available for transfer here. I have used this system to borrow books from other libraries before. I believe that is what you mean by inter library loan. The Place Hold button does not actually work for this title. The UW/Worldcat tab shows the book too, but it doesn't actually let you do anything with it that is helpful. We do have the one four-year university in Laramie - University of Wyoming. And there is CSU in Fort Collins, Colorado. Both are about 45 minutes away. Well, there is a small 2 year community college here in Cheyenne. It's also free to request books be added to the library. My father has successfully done this before. How many books are in the series total? Thanks! I may learn some new stuff about my library in this process. dawnleelynn(talk) 19:35, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Yeah, for a loan from an academic library - I usually have to ask a librarian, as I can't get access to the various databases/catalogs to request, but sometimes librarians will be able to do it. There are 9 books in the series in total - they are all named "Legends: Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares" with the ones past #1 being "Legends #: ....". They are very good resources as the authors often times interviewed owners or other family members for information, as well as doing some research in the Western Horseman magazine archives ... each book does between 15 and 25 horses. There is a similar series on Paints and one for Arabians too. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:39, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Well, I am not able to ask a librarian for UofW or CSU obviously. The two year college here isn't likely to have them. However, the Wyldcat system did have that tab UW/Worldcat which I have not explored before and several of the Legends books were listed there, including Vol 8. I couldn't do anything with the book on that page. But that doesn't mean I won't be able to ask at the library about it and find a way to obtain it. I mean what's the point of the tab and listing the book if I can't borrow it? I'm also going to request the books. I mean, this is Cheyenne, why wouldn't they want some really good horse books? I'll have to go to the library since that tab is locking up when you try to do anything on it (the UW/Worldcat tab). The request feature isn't working either...big surprise. Will update later this week. dawnleelynn(talk) 20:09, 23 January 2018 (UTC) Hi all, I just got back a little while ago from errands and I stopped by the library. First of all, let me post the library link [8] again. This shows the book available in our library system. I spent some time with a librarian. It was a very enlightening experience. First of all, if you look at that link, it says the book is at "Big Horn Co. Library" and I read it as Big Horn, Colorado. That is what I get for not paying enough attention. It is in Big Horn County. It's in Wyoming. (FYI, there is a Bighorn, Colorado.) The librarian said the entire state of Wyoming is linked together, and I can get books transferred from any library in the state. We are the only state in the nation that has their whole state linked. And it is precisely because we are the smallest state in the nation that we can do so. As the population goes up, the less in an area that can be linked together. So, that search where I select "All WYLD Libraries" is the correct pick from the drop-down if I want to do an Inter Library Loan. That's what they call it too. But, here comes the tricky part. It's not intuitive at all, and they have changed how it worked since the last time I borrowed a book from another library. I could have tried for hours, and I never would have figured it out. On the book listing, you don't click Hold, which would make sense and was the way it used to worked. No, you click the Call Number. Next to where it says Call Number there is long number and you click that. And then you have to agree to pay the $2 transfer fee and it finally reserves the book for you. It does ask for another log in at some point. I had to try twice to get the book to show under My Account under My Requests. I don't know exactly how long it will take. About 2 - 3 days probably. It's in north central Wyoming about 6 hours from here. Oh, and the WY/Worldcat tab isn't something I can do anything with, I'll have to ask on the third floor about that sometime. I got the slips so I make requests for adding the books to the library. Naturally, I had to visit the rodeo section while I was here. I found a book by the same publisher on Rodeo Legends which looks very promising. It features 20 rodeo performers, the most well-known ones like Ty Murray and Tuff Hedeman, etc. I eyed three books on Cheyenne Frontier Days but I just can't bring myself to work on that article right now. Someday. :) dawnleelynn(talk) 23:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Hello again everybody, an update - I came back from the library without the book on Eternal Sun yesterday. Whatever I was looking at online Sunday night, was not an indication it was ready for pickup. In fact, the librarian said the library in Big Horn County denied, saying they could not find the book on their shelves. But they have two others locations out of state they are trying next, they do that automatically. But apparently, she said, the books are popular, this being horse country and all. I gave her the request to have the books, all 9 volumes, added to this library as well. We will see what happens. dawnleelynn(talk) 16:29, 30 January 2018 (UTC) Well, that sucks. I am keeping an eye out at the used bookstore here to see if they pop up. They save back horse books for me to look at, so I'll get first chance if they get any. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC) Drop me an email, I might have time to scan it sometime in the next few days...still insanely busy. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC) White Arabian Filly WAF, thanks a bunch. I appreciate. That sounds like a great setup too! dawnleelynn(talk) 02:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC) Ealdgyth Thanks a bunch, I sent one. dawnleelynn(talk) 02:58, 31 January 2018 (UTC) I called the library today. OK, the first out of state location added a $5 charge to the transfer (in addition to $2) so they are trying the second out of state location. They said check back next Tue or Wed. dawnleelynn(talk) 19:23, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Just a heads up to all, that Ealdgyth sent me the scanned pages from the book for the horse about two days ago. I'm starting on the article today. The last out of state library still shows as pending in my library account; it's been a week now and I am doubtful anything would happen. WAF, I will start a new section on your talk page where we can discuss the edits once I've gotten something worth discussing. I probably won't update here anymore. Unless it's only to say what finally happened with the library. Thanks all for your help. I hope we can do a second GA after I've incorporated from the book. Ealdgyth, now that I see the content, I understand why you are so adamant about it. It will be a significant contribution. dawnleelynn(talk) 18:07, 11 February 2018 (UTC) I checked the library system on-line today. The request status still showed that vol. 8 was still pending. But I also saw that under "Hold" it now said there were 2 books there now instead of 1. (I had another rodeo book under request which showed up yesterday.) I went to the library and sure enough my book rodeo and vol. 8 book were there. I get it for 3 weeks (until Mar 6). Whether it can be renewed is up to the inter loan library which is Daniel Boone Library in Columbia, Missouri. No wonder it took so long! They only charged me $2. The scans are still extremely useful to me. I actually like being able to place the edit window and scanned page side by side to write. And I can study the text in book and sit comfortably in the sofa now. Having both is really great. Having the scans permanently is also great because something could come up down the road and I can defend or review from the scans to the article. And it makes it so I have no time limit on making the changes. I always hear that an article is never done! I see your thanking my edits WAF. And thanks again Ealdgyth. Also, I seriously hope they accept my suggestion to add the books to the library. dawnleelynn(talk) 23:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Small clips from magazine

In working with one source, a book from Western Horseman, "Legends Volume 8: Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares" by Frank Holmes, there is a snippet used from a magazine. The magazine is the American Quarter Horse Journal May 1972 issue. The article in it is the "The Success of Harold Howard."

According to copyright law, if the quote is properly cited and does not violate the Fair Use rules, I can quote it here. Just like the book quoted it in its content. I'd like White Arabian Filly, who is my co-author, to be able to see the content.

First clip:

"We drove into the Phillips'." he said. "and I remember thinking that was probably the most fabulous place I had ever seen. The sale had already started when we got there, and as we walked into the tent, it seemed like almost every horse was bringing several thousand dollars. But I bought the last horse of the day, a mare by the name of Sally Barjo."

"The next day, I bought a daughter of Dividend called She's My Girl, , and the next one I bought was Eternal Sun."

"When they brought him into the ring, I sat there and watched the price go up, and I told my friend who was with me, 'Well there he goes.' But I did bid, like I said I was going to, thinking this would be the last time, but things slowed down and I big again, and I owned the horse."

"I wanted a daughter of his to bring home before I did, and my wife I might add, thought I had lost my mind. But about a week later, things got pretty much under control."

End of first clip.

Second clip:

"On Eternal One, it seemed like she was born to be a winner," Howard commented. "We showed her briefly as a weanling, and she showed lots of promise."

"As a 2-year-old, she picked up her halter points readily, and we also started riding her at 2. Her riding ability was outstanding, and I think she picked up her necessary pleasure points before she turned 3."

"Mari Kay used her at the Congress that year for her youth horse, but we thought she needed some more extensive training to be an all-around horse for youth, so we let Bill Horn take from the Congress. He was supposed to get her ready to go to Florida as Mari Kay's youth horse for 1972."

"Well, Bill only had her a short time," Howard continued, "when he called and said that she had to be the horse to go ahead with at the reining horse for that coming fall's National Reining Horse [Association] Futurity. We reluctantly agreed with Bill, and he began her reining training."

"Her first out in the reining was a big show in New York, where she won second. She went from there to the Michigan State Fair, which she won, and from there to the Michigan Futurity, where she won the reining and the 3-year-old Western pleasure."

---break---

After winning a big reining futurity in Sedalia, Missouri, Eternal One and Bill Horn headed for the All American Quarter Horse Congress in Columbus, Ohio. There, Howard's Eternal Sun's daughter was entered in both the National Reining Horse Association Futurity and the Congress reining futurity.

--- end break ---

"Bill advised me to finish paying the mare up in one or the other," Howard said, "but not both, because he said that no horse could do well in both. But I suggested since we had been making payments in both, let's just finish paying her up in both."

"Then she won both of them. We received telegrams and letters of congratulation from all over."

End of clip.

dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The best of the "two-way threats" in the 1970's crop

Eternal Pete - see article

Eternal Snow, 1970 dun mare out of Miss Snow Bar, Superior in Western pleasure and AQHA Champion

Eternal Palomar, 1973 red dun stallion out of Lass' Dena, AQHA Champion and Superior in steer roping

Eternal Sally Jo Barjo, AQHA Champion with a Superior in halter, a youth AQHA Champion with Superior in youth halter competition and youth AQHA Champion.

Eternal Clyde, Superior in Western pleasure and AQHA Champion in youth division

Eternal Cookie open AQHA Champion and AQHA Champion in youth division

Eternal Needmore, 1975 sorrel gelding out of Mamie Jean. AQHA Champion and Superior halter horse with 170 halter points to his credit.

Also qualifying as AQHA Champions were Ol' Sol, Eternal Dutch, Eternal Moonbeam, and Fiddle's Special.

Earning their Superior event awards were Sun Tab, Western pleasure; Pines Eternal Lady, Western pleasure; and Daffodil Lil, halter

(from pages 98 and 99)

From page 101 another horse with his picture in the book. Captioned: Sun Bars Sugar, a 1977 red dunn mare by Eternal Sun Bars and out of Paleface Sug Bars, was a two-time world champion halter mare and a world champion producer.

From page 103 there is a horse photo captioned, "Son of Sun, a 1972 dun stallion by Eternal Sun Bars and out of Miss Rudy Beaver, was the AQHA 1976 World Championship Aged Halter Stallion.

The end of the 1970's — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawnleelynn (talk • contribs) 19:31, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Eight more horses born at Phillips Ranch

Born on Phillips Ranch from 1965 to 1967. Need to determine if they belong in article.

Devon 1965 sorrel stallion out of Rosamunda Leo AQHA champion superior in halter 132 pts

Eternal Charm 1965 bay mare out of Poco Sukey Superior in youth reining and Western horsemanship

Sheree Sun 1965 sorrel mare out of Time Echols AQHA champion

Sun Lustre 1965 bay mare out of Deanna Bar AQHA champion

Big Sun 1966 bay stallion out of Brian's Lass, won several titles and awards 1970 High-Point Working Cow Horse and Junior Working Cow Horse, 1973 High-Point Tie-Down Roping Stallion, AQHA Champion, and Superior in halter competiton (This guy is given a picture in the book so maybe worth mentioning).

Eternal Tom 1966 gray gelding out of Miss Kitty Grey AQHA Champion

Eternal Too 1966 sorrel stallion out of Debonaire AQHA 1969 High-Point Halter Stallion, as well as High-Point Junior High-Point Halter Horse, and AQHA Champion with a Superior in halter and total 205 halter points (Another one that has his own picture in the book.)

Eternal Baby 1967 sorrel mare out of Betty San, became 1972 High-Point Jumping Mare and AQHA Champion. Earned Superior in hunter-under-saddle competiton.

High Tiara, 1967 dun mare out of Tiara Bar, awarded a Superior in halter.

Also mentioned later on another page, page 100, is Eternal Sun Bars with his picture, captioned, "Eternal Sun Bars, a 1966 red dun stallion by Eternal Sun and out of Benetta Bar, was both a winning show horse and a top sire,"

Now, on page 101, there is a paragraph devoted to Eternal Sun Bars and his son, Sun Bars Sugar, the 1979 World Champion 2-Year-Old Mare, as well as 1980 World Champion 3-Year-Old mare. "Sugar," in turn produced Impressible Sun Bar, the 1984 World Champion Yearling Stallion. Likewise, Matt Sun sired Son of Sun, the 1976 World Champion Aged Stallion and High-Point Stallion. (Matt Sun is referred to elsewhere in this talk page.)

Also mentioned on page 94 is a horse on page 94 with a picture and caption "Matt Sun, a 1963 dun stallion by Eternal Sun and out of Sun Arrow, was his sire's first performer to earn both an AQHA Championship and a Superior award in halter competition.

dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:23, 25 March 2018 (UTC)