Talk:Eugene Aynsley Goossens

Grave accent on Eugene

We have him as "Eugène Aynsley Goossens". Is this correct? My old Grove V suggests that Eugène I (1845-1906) and Eugène II (1867-1958), both Belgians, spelled their names with a grave, but Eugene III, born an Englishman, drops the grave. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Further, I've never seen his name spelled this way in Australian references (newspapers, books etc.) Maybe it was in the UK, I don't know. Here, he's always called "you-JEAN", not "you-ZHANE" or "er-ZHEN". Do we have any sources where he writes his own name, to decide whether to include the accent or not? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• This cite refers to "Gisèle Ben-Dor" but "Eugene Goossens".

• Here we have Renée Goossens, the daughter of Eugene Goossens. This is full of Renées, but has no Eugènes.

• This is a learned opinion that Eugene Goossens should be distinguished from his father and grandfather, the two Eugènes.

• This distinguishes between Eugène Ysaÿe and Eugene Goossens, who were both directors of the Cincinnati Symphony.

• Eugene Goossens Hall is not "Eugène Goossens Hall", whereas if there were a hall named after Gabriel Fauré, it would not be "Gabriel Faure Hall".

• I intend to move this article to "Eugene Aynsley Goossens", and will do so unless I hear any objections within a reasonable time. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, no responses, so I've made the move. I see some editor even went to the trouble of putting grave accents into the titles of the references, when their authors in their wisdom chose to do without them. Now, that's really taking things too far. -- JackofOz (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

accent grave

Le dictionnaire de la Musique de Marc Honegger (Bordas, 1986) met un accent grave à son prénom, peut-être un choix de son père né en France ?

--86.209.96.183 (talk) 14:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Merci. If I understand your French, that says: "Marc Honegger's Dictionnaire de la Musique (Bordas, 1986) renders his first name with an accent grave, perhaps the choice of his father, who was born in France". I'd be surprised if the grave wasn't there in a French-language work; but we're talking about English-language works. I think WP's article is the only English-language place I've ever seen Goossen's name written with a grave. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree about the rarity of the è in Eugene (Goossens) III as commonly printed in English. Even though I am a newcomer to Wikipedia, I submit that consideration be given to removing the grave accent from the fundamental Wikipedia entry. In any case, you get to the page whether you type in Eugène Goossens or Eugene Goossens. Bixanorak (talk) 22:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah: please accept my apologies. This page actually has dispensed with the grave accent in Eugene! What was bothering me was that if you enter 'Eugene Goossens' in the 'search' slot, all three results still have the grave... I guess it probably doesn't matter anyhow. (Bixanorak (talk) 22:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC))

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:52, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Eugene Aynsley Goossens → Eugene Goossens – His full name is never used to refer to him. The page title presumably dates from when full names were routinely used for article titles. The 2 external links that appear to endorse "Aynsley" are simply invoking the page title. Both of those external pages call him simply Eugene Goossens. Cheers, Varlaam (talk) 01:02, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support. A google books search shows that simply "Eugene Goossens" is clearly the most commonly used name (12 results for "Eugene Aynsley Goossens" compared to 14,000 for "Eugene Goossens"). Jenks24 (talk) 11:50, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Hmmm, I appear to have completely misread this. For some reason I thought Eugene Goossens redirected to this article, which is clearly not the case. The "Aynsley" in the title is for disambiguation purposes rather than common name purposes. I agree with Jack of Oz below that the diacritic is not enough to distinguish him from his father and grandfather and that a unique disambiguation is required, though I'm not convinced that "(grandfils)" is the best option. I will ponder this further. Jenks24 (talk) 09:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

    I'm not convinced about that either. It was only half-serious. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 13:17, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

    According to their Wikipedia articles, this Eugene's father and grandfather were French and Belgian, respectively, so why can't we use Eugene Goossens (English conductor)? Jenks24 (talk) 09:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

• Not sure. The full name has been used in WP to distinguish him from his father Eugène Goossens, fils and grandfather Eugène Goossens, père, because Eugene Goossens (conductor) would not have done. He was a composer too, but Eugene Goossens (composer) would have meant little to readers looking for the conductor who didn't know he was also a composer. The fils and père were obviously not part of his father's and grandfather's names in real life: they were simply Eugène Goossens, both of them. Our guy was Eugene Goossens (no grave on the e). It's important to get this detail right, but is this orthographic quirk enough to tell them apart? I'm not at all certain about that. How do we make certain the name is sufficiently disambiguated and also sufficiently meaningful within the context of an encyclopedia? When he was alive, people would talk about him simply as "Eugene Goossens", because he was the only person of that name of current significance. But here, our scope is universal and historical. The bare "Eugene Goossens" could mean 3 different people. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 12:07, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: Dad and Grandpa are accented and are distinguished by père and fils. Sorry, with Dumas only the son gets a fils.
  I have been around long enough to have Goossens on LP, and he's Eugene. I don't see the value in giving the familiar person a silly name.
  I think of him primarily as a conductor. I was previously unacquainted with the kinfolk. I have no trouble with de-emphasizing their importance; I don't think they should take precedence over the grandson. Is an orthographic quirk good enough? Sure.
  Varlaam (talk) 18:14, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
• I might do this:
  • Eugène Goossens (père)
  • Eugène Goossens (fils)
  • Eugene Goossens

• How about:
  • Eugène Goossens (père)
  • Eugène Goossens (fils)
  • Eugene Goossens (grandfils). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
• Très drôle, mon vieux, très amusant. Mais c'est petit-fils. Le mot, ce n'est pas grandfils.
  Using "Aynsley" (Aynsley Dunbar?) makes someone who knows who Eugene is (moi, par exemple) think, Who is this Eugene Aynsley? He's the son of Eugene? Right?
  Clearly, Eugene Aynsley is disambiguating from Eugene. Because, otherwise, it would be utterly ridiculous.
  We could use a genuine solution here, mes copains.
  Varlaam (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support ursurping the current redirect Eugene Goossens by moving Eugene Aynsley Goossens there and removing the hatnotes from Eugène Goossens, père and Eugène Goossens, fils. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Page view stats per month show 847 for Eugene Aynsley Goossens, 205 for Eugène Goossens, fils and 137 for Eugène Goossens, père. Jenks24 (talk) 22:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Digging up an old grave...

The next time you plan on moving this page, here are some things to bear in mind:

1. New Grove (usually a highly reputable source) have Goossens’ name as Sir (Aynsley) Eugene Goossens — i.e. initials AEG, not EAG as per the page title. If so, the current page title is factually wrong.
2. VIAF cites various national libraries’ authority records for Goossens’ canonical name, and there are three main variants:
   1. Goossens, Eugene — Library of Congress (LOC), BNF, BNE, etc.
   2. Goossens, Eugène — DNB, RERO
   3. Goossens, Eugene, Sir — NLA, LAC

   Some of these authority records also cite Goossens, Aynsley Eugene among their secondary records (again the man’s initials would have been AEG, not EAG).

3. Holographs of Goossens’ musical works can be found where he signs himself both “Eugene Goossens” and “Eugène Goossens”.

As I’m usually not around for such discussions as the one recently conducted in August (because, frankly, the rules-lawyering here would drive me far beyond the mediocre limits of my patience) I can see little reason except inertia for keeping the current (EAG) page title: it really should be simply Eugene Goossens, which is how the world knows him at large (and the grave accent seems to be omitted more often, but the man himself obviously wasn’t fussed by either its omission or its addition). Kind regards, Philip _{User Talk Email} 04:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

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Sydney Opera House?

Why is there nothing about Goosens role in driving the creation of the Sydney Opera House? Rustygecko (talk) 04:24, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I take it back, it is there but only right at the bottom of the article. Rustygecko (talk) 04:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Conviction and fleeing Australia.

March 1956 at Sydney airport, returning from being knighted in London, customs caught him with pornograohic images, rubber masks and other similar items. He was convicted, paid a £100 fine, left Australia 10 weeks later, never to return. Rustygecko (talk) 04:31, 4 October 2023 (UTC)