Talk:Black Ribbon Day

major reorganisation

The article now progresses sensibly from introduction, through history, through the EU adoption process, to the current state of observance in the EU. Previously the content was mixed up across sections, some of them badly named, some of them containing information not relevant to the European Day of Remembrance. Perhaps in the new structure there are places for you to put back information you feel WAS relevant, for example Georgia. But basically there was too much attempt here to stretch the European Day and include a lot of black ribbon stuff without explaining that it is separate from the official EU Day which is the subject of this page.Spitfire3000 (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC) If you think this page is about black ribbon day then i suggest a new title or a separate page. With the current title it quite clearly restricts relevance to the official EU day. if it's not EU, it's background information on this page. Canada is not european and does not observe the European Day of Remembrance.Spitfire3000 (talk) 22:53, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Read the introduction first. The introduction has always made it perfectly clear that this remembrance day is known under two different names, one of which is Black Ribbon Day. A Wikipedia article can only have one main title, but the lead can include alternate names. The remembrance day in Canada is the same as the European one, commemorating the same event on the same day. Canada is also part of the OSCE (this remembrance day is supported both by the EU and the OSCE). Black Ribbon Day is the traditional name of this remembrance day used in the Baltics. European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism is a new name for what is historically called Black Ribbon Day (since the 1980s) used by the European Parliament. Tataral (talk) 23:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

If you want this article to be about black ribbon day then a different title is necessary, because this article uses the official EU title which hasn't been used by anyone else (and isn't even used by some of its supporters at national level). I made efforts to include the background of black ribbon day where relevant to the EU Day. The PA of the OSCE declared support for the EU Day, reaffirming it as an EU Day, not reforming it as a collaboration with the OSCE. Canada supports the EU Day via the PA of the OSCE, not as a member state of the EU. Perhaps rewriting as Black Ribbon Day and relegating the EU Day to a subsection would be more appropriate, because that seems to be what you are suggesting is the reality.Spitfire3000 (talk) 00:32, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

No, a different title is not necessary. There are plenty of articles on things that have more than one name. One chooses the most common name and includes alternate names in the lead section. In this case, European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism is the most common name of the remebrance day on 23 August known both as European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism, Black Ribbon Day and even some other names that are variations of European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism. This article is not exclusively about the "EU day", it's about the remembrance day for totalitarianism on 23 august known under different names and observed both inside EU and in other countries, and that originated in the 1980s long before the EU initative. Tataral (talk) 01:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

What you say suggests to me that Black Ribbon Day would be a more appropriate title. That is how it was known before the EU proposal, and I don't think the EU name is now known better than Black Ribbon Day. Maybe you have some sources to support the notion that "European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism is the most common name of the remebrance day on 23 August known both as European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism, Black Ribbon Day and even some other names that are variations of European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism."? Spitfire3000 (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Incomplete list

The list of countries observing the day is not complete. I'm having a hard time understanding machine translation from Lithuanian, but it clearly appears that 23 August is officially commemorated there[1][2][3][4] Tataral (talk) 01:35, 23 January 2012 (UTC) Yes, Lithuania belongs in this section. She must have been the fifth of the "five member states" announced in 2010. Good work.Spitfire3000 (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Its name there appears to be "Europos diena stalinizmo ir nacizmo aukoms atminti ir Baltijos kelio diena"[5] - machine translated quite meaninglessly as "European Day of Victims of Stalinism and Nazism in the Baltic and the memory of a few days". Tataral (talk) 01:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a direct translation of the official EU title but adds "Baltic Way Day" at the end.Spitfire3000 (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Observation of the Day is not europe-wide

Tataral stated "There are no conclusive data on which countries bodies that currently observe the day" This is because nobody observes it. A few articles in anti-semitic news portals is all the evidence I can find in Lithuania that this day has any importance whatsoever. This is why I repeatedly edit all these articles to ensure that a nonbinding resolution by the EP does not appear to be consequential and certainly doesn't show europe-wide agreement. If the proposal had been binding, it would never have received a majority, even in the EP, because generally the european consensus is that communist crimes are not worthy of equal treatment to the nazi crimes. This was explained by Reding referring to the Montero Report. The Day is not universally accepted, this is the POV of high level european officials and bodies. I see no reason to allow a different POV to be implied by the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spitfire3000 (talk • contribs)

Now you are misrepresenting the facts again. As amply documented, this remembrance day is officially observed by the European Parliament[6], by the European Commission[7], by at least 8 EU member states as of 2011 (a number which has constantly increased), and by Canada[8] and Georgia. That's far from "nobody". And speaking of Viviane Reding, she released a statement on "on the Europe-wide Day of Remembrance for the victims of all totalitarian and authoritarian regimes" last year. Tataral (talk) 06:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The "no conclusive data" comment referred to the fact that we have verified that at least 8 EU member states observed the day as of 2011, but it could be more. I have not checked every single country. Tataral (talk) 06:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Very dangerous interpretation

http://www.ustrcr.cz/en/23-august-the-european-day-remembrance-victims-totalitarian-regimes Please see the right interpretation on this web site, explaining that Nazism and Stalinism were only some of many totalitarian and authoritarian regimes in Europe. Members of the Working Group for the Platform of European Memory and Conscience believe that Europe will not be united unless it is able to recognise Nazism, Stalinism and other totalitarian and autocratic systems as a common European legacy and bring about an honest and thorough debate on all crimes against humanity of the past century. Does the author mean that Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin have occupied the Greater Circassia (including Alaska, Oregon, Washington, Hawaii, California) and Tamerlan Tsarnayev has been a guerilla liberating the Greater Circassia? There are no reliable sources about the division of Eastern Europe during the Yalta conference apart from the opinion of an author that the USA and the UK leaders and even populations are responsible on the Europe division. To proceed with the article logic USA and UK must be legal targets of "anti-stalinist" guerillas from Eastern Europe. The totalitarian and authoritarian regimes of Baltic states, Poland, Romania violated the rights of German, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Rusin populations, of Christians, of Czechoslovakia. They were the closest allies of Hitler who sacrificed these allied regimes when they had become useless ones in his opinion. Sir Whinston Chuchill emphasised in the British parliament after August 23, 1939 that when Central Europe and Eastern Europe authoritarian and totalitarian regimes together had successfully attacked democratic Czechoslovakia, being the closest ally not only of Stalin, but of the UK and France, any Russian leader would sign this treaty, not only Stalin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MVanova (talk • contribs) 08:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

First of all, put your new section in chronological order-I moved it to the bottom of the TP. Secondly, we need citations from Reliable Sources, not your personal (and somewhat skewed) viewpoint. HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 2 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist | wear a mask 15:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

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European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism -> Black Ribbon Day - According to my investigation, I find that according to Google hits

• "Black Ribbon Day": 28,300 results
• "European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism": 6,910

"Black Ribbon Day" has been in use for longer, having been observed since the 1980s. It is also a lot shorter and less cumbersome as a name. buidhe 09:46, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Kraose (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• The proposed new title is a lot less meaningful than the existing one. AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The numbers are quite convincing. The "long" name can be preserved in the article lead and it will still hit in search engines. Cloud200 (talk) 16:15, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support WP:CONCISE BegbertBiggs (talk) 09:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Radio Free Europe?

Citing a US government propaganda website as a source seems very sketchy. I have in mind to further NPOV this page, but that would be a rather large set of changes. So I'm writing here in the talk page first to see what everyone else thinks. KetchupSalt (talk) 10:23, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

The whole article is biased, as it is the norm now in Wikipedia, using known anticommunist propaganda as valid sources. This article should at least include a criticisms section, where Domenico Losurdo's critique of the concept of totalitarianism should be present. 177.236.74.249 (talk) 18:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I've been watching the list of totalitarian regimes and its talk page for a while, and it seems to me it's primarily used to equivocate between fascism and Leninism. The purpose of the Black Ribbon Day is the same, both in the EU and here on WP, making it liberal POV. I did not know about Domenico Losurdo, but he seems to put forth this same point. KetchupSalt (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes this page is in desperate need of a criticisms section. There is ample material and sources to substantiate the claims of critics like Dovid Katz. His NGO Defending History is basically devoted to refuting the distortions and revisionism of the "Double Holocaust" narrative, which is the intellectual foundation for Black Ribbon Day and the Prague declaration. The organization has an excellent website: https://defendinghistory.com/mission-statement

See also this page with a list of academic publications on the topic: https://defendinghistory.com/holocaust-and-antisemitism-studies-papers-and-reviewsin-academic-venues

If I can find the time in the next month or so I will start drafting the new section.

Toadchavay (talk) 11:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good. It's recently come to my attention that the double genocide theory is a form of Holocaust denialism, where I had initially assumed it was just ignorance. KetchupSalt (talk) 14:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)