Talk:European Democratic Party

The Flag of the Council of Europe should be used to represent the Council of Europe instead of its logo.

Hello and thank you to @Julius_Schwarz for engaging with me on the multi-reverted edits I made.
The first thing to note is that this discussion shall apply to all the pages in relation to a EuroParty appearing on this list here but only one discussion is opened here. As @Julius_Schwarz reverted my edits and I reverted his afterwards, he asked me to engage into discussion per Wikipedia:BRD. I therefore open the discussion here and I think it's better to do it only once at one place as it always about the same problem. I hope that @Julius_Schwarz is okay to have only one discussion opened for eleven pages. If this is not ok for you, we will have to find one other place to discuss and I am open for any suggestions coming from you, @Julius_Schwarz.

About my edit, I changed on each Europarty page the logo of the Council of Europe with the Flag of the Council of Europe. I did replace the template Council of Europe by the template Council of Europe. This has been revered twice by Julius Schwarz.

Now, there are several reasons why I did this:
1) The page Flag of Europe states many times the flag is shared by both organisations. Wikipedia here tells the facts, only the facts: The Council of Europe has a flag, it's the Flag of Europe. And the EU happens to have a flag too and it's the same/the one of the Council of Europe.
2) If the pages about EuroParties are using flags for the countries and the EU (which is an organisation), the CoE should also have its flag used and not its logo. The problem on Wikipedia is that the European Flag is more and more understood as solely the EU flag when it is not. The history of the flag tells the opposite: the Council of Europe has been using this flag since 1955, the EEC only 30 years later, since 1985. Both share the exact same flag, the EU uses the CoE flag and not the other way around.
3) Why I write the flag used by the EU is the flag of the Council of Europe and not the other way around? Firstly because the facts about the years tells the story: 1995 for the CoE, 1985 for the EEC. Secondly because the EU reached an agreement with the Council of Europe only in 2012. The agreement is the called the Administrative agreement with the Council of Europe regarding the use of the European emblem by third parties 2012/C 271/04. Note its written «with» the Council of Europe and not «between the EU and the Council of Europe». This text clarifies that the Flag of the Council of Europe «cannot» be trademarked by anyone but allows the Citizens of the 46 countries of the Council of Europe (included the 27 EU states) to freely hang this flag where they want. If the flag was within the EU legality, only EU institutions would have been able to use it as it is the case for the logos and symbols of the EU (aka protected emblems and the list can be found here). The Council of Europe always saw the flag they created in 1955 as having the purpose to represent «any» European organisations having same objectives as Human Rights, Democracy, Culture, etc as an identity of the European continent, as they rightly write it on their website here, "From its foundation in 1949 the Council of Europe was aware of the need to give Europe a symbol with which its inhabitants could identify."
4) @Julius_Schwarz wrote the CoE uses a logo with a E on it so it should be used for the Council of Europe. Again, there is here a difference of treatment: why using the Flag of Europe for the EU but the logo of the Council of Europe when the organisation has a flag?
Interestingly enough, at the Eurovision Song Contest 1987 held in Brussels, there is a «postcard» of the stars flying up on a European Flag at the top of a mountain creating the Flag of Europe. Remember this was in 1987, the EEC decided to use the flag of the Council of Europe only 2 years before and out of the 22 countries participating this year, 10 participating countries were not members of the EEC including Switzerland, Turkey, Cyprus, Yugoslavia, Israel, etc. It shows this flag has been used by the CoE, the EEC but also by the EBU which has no link whatsoever to the Council of Europe nor the EEC/EU. It still was used with another organisation that was trying to be «continental» and unifying the People through culture, here specifically music.
5) The Council of Europe specifically tells that what we've been doing on Wikipedia for years is wrong. I quote their website about the logo: "It is not recommended to use one or several elements of the logo to create new logos or designs." And someone on Wikipedia, years ago, decided to use only one element of the logo (the flag with the E leaving behind the words in English Council of Europe at the top and Conseil de l'Europe in French at the bottom) unilaterally and decided once for all it would be the "flag of the CoE". It's not a flag, it's an altered logo, it's even worst, it's a logo modified badly and falsely, in opposition to CoE's recommendations.
6) If the use of the same flag for both Organisation might be disturbing to some of us, it is in fact what both organisations wanted to. The vexillological question was raised in Switzerland in 2012. SVP/UDC MP complained why the «flag of the EU» was hanged on May 5 on Swiss Parliament and why the «Flag of the Council of Europe with the C» couldn't be used instead. (Read the question here in French (German or Italian versions available). The Swiss Government replied in French with a translation that could be the following one "The Council of Europe logo, which is composed of a dark blue rectangle, a white outline, twelve orange stars, a light green spiral, the texts "Council of Europe" and "Conseil de l'Europe" in black as well as a black underline, does not exist in flag form. It is used only on printed or electronic publications by Council of Europe institutions. The Organization adopted this logo on the occasion of its 50th anniversary, in May 1999. Its use is subject to authorization."
7) Using the Flag of Europe solely for the EU and not for the CoE is in fact a steal clean in order: it's stripping one organisation of its own flag/object and deciding unilaterally that what they own and invented doesn't belong to them anymore: clearly unfair. It also betrays the original spirit of the flag that should be commonly used, as the Council of Europe wanted it, by any organisation on the European continent that shares common values of Rule of Law, Culture and Democracy. Let's not forget the European Court of Human Rights that supervises and installs Democracy and the Rule of Law over the whole continent is linked to the CoE and not to the EU.

Moreover, the use of the CoE logo with the E on Wikipedia to represent the Council of Europe is actually subject to authorization and the CoE derived flag found under the wikipedia Template Council of Europe is only existing on... Wikipedia as a false and badly altered logo - probably used without formal authorisation.

I totally understand your need to differentiate both organisations on the EuroParties pages but the Council of Europe is already separated on your wikitable by a line putting it at the end, and in another box. One already have the differentiation with this arrangement. I also completely agree with this position you chose as putting it last (though note EuroParties also have reference in CLaRA in the Council of Europe) and at the bottom of the list in a separated box.

Using a false and badly altered logo actually violates not only the history and the purpose of such a flag but also considers one entity only (here the EU) as being the sole legit user of one object (here the Flag of Europe) when it's clearly not the case. I'm open for discussion.

I reckon the work you have been doing on EuroParties pages on Wikipedia is tremendously great and useful and it brings a lot to the general knowledge. To make it «perfect», I strongly think that using the correct flag that both organisations share should be a good move, especially if what we've been talking is mainly flag vs. logo.

Looking forward to reading your inputs. :) Ngagnebin (talk) 00:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

First of all, thank you @Ngagnebin for raising the topic here instead of getting into a counter-productive edit war. This is a much better place to quietly discuss this issue, so kudos for that. [EDIT: and, yes, better on a single page than on ten or twelve.]

Secondly, thanks for drawing my attention to Template:European political parties, where I noticed that we had forgotten to add two recently registered European political parties -- mistake corrected!

Now, let's get to the matter at hand. Firstly, I think we both have our respective positions and, while this is good place to exchange ideas, I think the main goal is to draw other contributions in. For this, I will therefore try and keep my point as short as possible.

To be clear: most, if not all, of your points about the history of the Flag of Europe are correct. I am not disputing them. This flag was the flag of the Council of Europe long before it was used by the EU (and before the EU was even known as the EU). I think the history is clear and it is well detailed on relevant pages.

However, the way I see it, the main point here is not whether the flag actually belongs to the Council of Europe, or who made an agreement with whom, but what serves better the articles/readers within the confines of what is factually correct.

The tables you edited contrast institutions of the European Union (the first four lines) with an institution of the Council of Europe (last line). Each line starts with the name of its organisation to make that distinction clearer, and the designs aim at underlining this distinction. To me, displaying the flag of Europe both for the European Union and for the Council of Europe is likely to be misleading to many readers who (unfortunately) are not well aware of the difference between these institutions. I think it is a better approach to take this lack of knowledge into account and to underline which organisation is which, rather than to think that people ought to know better and can always click on the wikilinks to know more. So I think the use of differentiated designs is very useful. In this sense, I have no issue with the Flag of Europe displaying as the main design on the article dedicated to the Council of Europe; but where we specifically put different institutions side-by-side, the use of different designs is welcome.

And, to be sure, this is specifically why this logo came to be. While the Council of Europe never stopped using or owning the Flag of Europe (which it actually encouraged other European institutions to use), the CoE came up with this logo for the specific purpose of setting itself aside from EU institutions. So this differentiation is specifically what this logo was meant to achieve.

Then there is the question of whether it is appropriate to use this logo. One could well argue that differentiation is good, but that the use of this logo is not appropriate. Since this is the logo adopted by the CoE itself and used as part of its visual identity, which you quoted, I think it is appropriate to use it to represent the CoE. As for your argument that the specific logo used here is wrong because it removes the text at the top and bottom, I do not have a position on this; however, this is an argument which should be taken to the page of the logo itself -- either there is an agreement to use this logo or there is an agreement to use the full logo, but this is separate from its use here.

So that's pretty much my argument. Does the Flag belong to the Council of Europe? Yes. Would it be wrong to use it here? No. Does it serve a better purpose to use another design? Yes. Is the logo (regardless of its accepted design) well-suited for the purpose of differentiating the CoE from the EU? Yes. Is this use in line with the CoE's visual identity? Yes. These questions may have different answers depending on the article and context, but I think these -- and not the question of history and ownership -- are the points that are at stake here. Julius Schwarz (talk) 07:43, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. And sorry for replying so many days later, I had some issues to solve. But I am back. :)

I understand now better your views. I still have a problem using one specific altered logo vs. flag. As you wrote, «Since this is the logo adopted by the CoE itself and used as part of its visual identity, [ ... ], I think it is appropriate to use it to represent the CoE.» I'd agree with that if one would use then the logos of each institutions also adopted by the EU itself to visually identify the EU Commission vs. the EU Parliament vs. etc. ; then all should have their own logos such as the ones found here EU Parliament and here EU Commission on Commons.

By the way, the CoE is using this year everywhere on its website a new «logo». The logo - that could easily be considered as a new flag as well - appears on main page, on PACE pages and on CLaRA pages. I think no one is going to cut chunks on it and keep the «75» with 4 stars as the new CoE «flag» even though the Council of Europe itself uses it everywhere. (I don't know if you see my point here - English is not my first language :-/ ). So if we’re not doing it now, I really regret we did it for CoE’s logo transformed unilaterally and wrongly on Wikipedia into a flag. I agree we could bring this up to the «flag» of CoE page discussion but I’m not sure it would be that much of a good idea because the vast majority of the people do not have any knowledge in vexillology so they will just go no matter what for what they think they understand - while not taking into account the history and the use - vs. what it's supposed to be (facts vs. feelings). I mean if you ask anyone, «what is the flag of the CoE?», probably not many will be able to describe it. On the other hand, everyone will tell you that the 12 yellow stars on a blue field flag «is» the «EU Flag» while it’s not the «EU flag» but the flag of the CoE also used by the EU - that's a big difference.

By analogy, it's a bit like we would be using the International Red Cross flag only in the American Red Cross article solely because for English speakers and Wikipedia users, it's commonly understood as being the American Red Cross flag but then use the logo for the International Committee of the Red Cross in the ad hoc article to avoid the American Red Cross flag being mistaken by the International Red Cross Flag: it doesn't really make any sense.

For your point about not mistaking both organisations, I think one find a middle solution by creating another wikitable just with the Council of Europe and putting there the PACE and CLaRA as it's been done with the different institutions within the EU but the its own flag. How would you feel about that? Would it be a suitable solution for you? :) If not, what middle solution would you propose to reach consensus on to distinguish the two organizations without depriving one of its own flag?

Furthermore, I realised that in the text of the article, the same flag is used for «Europe». And here, it doesn't seem to have raised any concerns about misleading and clicking on Europe when doing so redirects to the Continent's article and not the EU nor the CoE's articles.

I still think that using a logo for one organisation and using its own flag for describing another one is a serious leveling down, unfortunately. I agree that the people understand when it’s «simple» but the world is full of nuance, not simplicity. Especially while reading an encyclopedia. ;) Ngagnebin (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your reply. To be really honest, I think this is really making things too complicated. For one, if both organisations (EU and CoE) are listed with the same flag, it will just lead to confusion. The point of the different designs is specifically to help tell them apart and, once again, this is what the CoE logo was designed for. It really does not matter that one is a flag (well, technically not a flag but just an "emblem") and the other one is a logo. This is not a protocol service, this is an encyclopedia article, and it is fair (and more useful) to use a design created by the CoE to refer to itself, regardless of whether it's a flag. Now, if you want to also add the logos of the various institutions (Parliament, Council, etc.), why not. I just don't think this is necessary and might just bloat the table. And making two separate tables is really just counterproductive. As for the precise logo (with or without text), I do maintain that the proper place is not here but really on the dedicated page/file of the logo. Julius Schwarz (talk) 10:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

OK. Seems you're not ready to any kind of consensus and if you've decided that confusion will prevail with the same flag - which I, on the other hand, don't agree - and that's your definitive point of view, then I have absolutely no possibility not to make this leveling down happening. So let it be. It's still kind of ironic that people who will be clicking on the European Flag image will be led to Commons where it's written under Licensing « Original graphical design and permission of use : The Council of Europe holds the copyright for the European flag. » ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ngagnebin (talk) 00:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You should though still add the numbers per EuroParty within CLaRA. Not only this place is way much more older than the European Committee of the Regions but the EuroParties have a lot of members there too [1]. And EuroParties publish there their ad hoc statutes (example here). Ngagnebin (talk) 01:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, as I had written in my first message, the point of having a discussion here was less about convincing each other (although why not), and more to have other people chip in. You are right that, in the end, I am not convinced that a change would be beneficial to users. So we can just agree to disagree, which is fine. However, this table has been used, edited, copied, etc., by many people and no one else has raised an issue with the way the designs are used, so I do not feel there is a consensus for change at this point. As for the number of European party members within the political groups of the Congress, I am not against including them -- in my view, the more information about European parties the better. However, do you have reliable and official figures for this? To me, this is the same reason we could (unfortunately) remove other composition bars (such as the lower and upper houses in the infobox): I don't think the information is accurate. Julius Schwarz (talk) 10:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)