Talk:Evan Dimas

Evan's goals in U-19

I think Evan scored 11 goals:
2013: v. Hong Kong- 1 goal [1]
in 2013 AFF U-19 Youth Championship- 5 goals
in 2014 AFC U-19 Championship qualification- 4 goals
2014: v. UEA- 1 goal [2]
is it enough? Rizky Rio (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes its perfect, thanks for the new links. How about the appearances for U-19? Do you think its more than 13? I counted and should be 15 caps for U-19 adding the 3 matches in the 2014 AFC U-19 Championship. MbahGondrong (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's more than 13. I counted it was 30.
2013: in HKFA- 3 [3][4]
v. UEA- 1 [5]
in 2013 AFF U-19 Youth Championship- 7
in 2014 AFC U-19 Championship qualification- 3
2014: v. Oman- 2 [6][7]
v. UEA- 2 [8][9]
v. Myanmar- 2 [10][11]
v. Yaman- 1 [12]
v. Lebanon- 1 [13]
in 2014 Hassanal Bolkiah Trophy- 5
in 2014 AFC U-19 Championship- 3
and actually Evan scored 12 goals. I've found one more goal when in HKFA, v. Singapore.[14] Rizky Rio (talk) 05:51, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for looking into this topic, it would be helpful to incorporate these links into the overall article to put an end to the "How many goals did Evan score?" debate. A word of caution though, under FIFA guidelines a match played with a referee of the same country officiating is not considered a "official match". I'm not sure if this standard applies to the u-19 side as it does to the senior side but there were many matches the Indonesia national under-19 football team played that was either against club teams or the matches had Indonesian officials. Thank you very much.Inter&anthro (talk) 15:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Awesome Rizky!! Great job, finally we have all the sources. As for the case does it counts to the official caps, I am not quite sure also but as the matches was against other countries it should not be a problem. There is always the choice to ask in WP Football talk page. MbahGondrong (talk) 19:02, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Every match with the referee from one of the playing team, is always not an official match. I think also Hassanal Bolkiah Trophy was not an official U-19 international match, as other team like Brunei etc, fielding senior player. @NnAs (talk) 01:00, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

So far for the senior national team I see in FIFA page if the match is official or not and it is also similar with the soccerway page of the national team. Based on that, I assume that the same can be applied to the soccerway page of the U-19 team. From there I saw that other than the AFF and AFC U-19 competitions, only the friendly against Myanmar is mentioned. I propose that to be inline with FIFA official matches rules, only those matches stated in the soccerway page of U-19 be added to the caps and goals. That means removing caps and goals for 2013 HKFA, 2014 Hassanal Bolkiah Trophy, 3 UEA friendlies, 2 Oman friendlies, Yaman friendly, Lebanon friendly and 1 Myanmar friendly. What do you guys think? MbahGondrong (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Soccerway is a good source but sometimes there are omitted matches. For example none of the matches Evan played at the 2013 AFF U-19 Youth Championship show up on his soccerway profile even though these were clearly official u-19 matches. Overall I think all the links Rizky Rio brought up should be incorporated into the article but only the official caps and goals should be counted in the statistics.Inter&anthro (talk) 19:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Soccerway could be a good basis for this case. For the caps that are not mentioned in soccerway, those can be traced through report links in each competition articles that he participated, thus making it sourced. As I understand, you basically agree with my proposal to not include caps and goals from the non-official matches mentioned, but add them as text in the international career section. Am I correct? MbahGondrong (talk) 20:12, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah you're spot on MbahGondrong. The fact that if he scored in an unofficial match for example does not negate the fact that he scored in a match, but that should not be included in the statistics because it was unofficial. Anyway that is just my opinion, anyone who thinks otherwise is free to express their opinion as well.Inter&anthro (talk) 00:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, lets wait if Rizky Rio and Annas86 have some other advice. If after a day there is no objection, changes should be made accordingly. MbahGondrong (talk) 21:59, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

On second thought concerning @NnAs's argument about the goals he scored during the 2014 Hassanal Bolkiah Trophy, although the tournament is not strictly a u-19 competition, with each team allowed three overage players, we still count the goals u-23 sides score during the Summer Olympic Tournament even though they again often field overage players.Inter&anthro (talk) 14:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I believe that the Hassanal Bolkiah Trophy does not have the same notability as the Summer Olympics, since its not an official FIFA match but just a normal friendly tournament. It shouldnt be included in the infobox. MbahGondrong (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

But, why friendly match against Myanmar in 5 May 2014 exist in Soccerway? Rizky Rio (talk) 00:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I guess that match is an official FIFA match, thus it is showed there. This is based on my assumption that soccerway only show official FIFA matches for national teams, such as the example I mentioned in my 4th comment. I havent changed the infobox yet but already added the sources in the article, corrections in wording would be appreciated. MbahGondrong (talk) 00:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually Soccerway not only show official FIFA matches, it also show non-FIFA match like v.Pakistan and Nepal. For the referees from one of the playing team, are not always non-FIFA match, if they included in current FIFA list of international referees and previously agreed by both team. FIFA 'A' matches criteria Rizky Rio (talk) 01:36, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I am not quite familiar with how the matches against Pakistan and Nepal are seen for the senior national team caps and would appreciate the inputs from others. If not maybe I will propose to make a simple consensus with two options either to keep the caps as it is or to use the idea from Inter&anthro. What do you guys think? MbahGondrong (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The matches against Nepal and Pakistan are not considered "official" matches because if you notice in both cases the referee was also Indonesian as well as for the fact that these matches occurred during the 2014 FIFA World Cup, were only World Cup matches are suppose to be held. There are a few unofficial matches on soccerway, as well as a few official that aren't on the website, although generally speaking soccerway is a trustworthy and reliable source.Inter&anthro (talk) 23:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

How about if we agree that only matches against other U-19 national teams are official and counts for the caps? Since based on the arguments mentioned here, its quite tricky to decide if the friendlies were official or not. What do you guys think? MbahGondrong (talk) 23:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

As it have been a month since this discussion started and it seems that in general we are okay with the current state of the youth caps, I think we should keep what we have right not. But if in the future more reliable and complete sources are available, it should be used to verify current informations. Cheers!! MbahGondrong (talk) 01:03, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

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