Talk:Excalibur Estate

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Information required

There is still some details that I would like to write into this article but I can't find any details. If anyone knows, it'd help me a lot.

• What buildings system was used for the homes?
• Is there anyone notable to have hailed from the estate?
• Is the church still operational and if so what can be said of it?
• Where close by have similar estates been constructed and when were they demolished?
• What are the reasons for Excalibur to have lasted so long?

Mtaylor848 (talk) 10:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Excalibur Estate/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs) 06:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I propose to take on this review. Before I read the article in detail and see if the GA criteria are met, I notice that the references are bare urls. I was not sure whether these would be allowed in a GA so I asked the question here. The reply suggested that I should encourage the nominator to add article titles to each link. If you need any help in formatting the citations better, please ask on my talk page. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

First reading

• The lead section should be a summary of the main body of the article and not include information that is not mentioned elsewhere. There should be no need to include citations in the lead section because these facts should be cited where they appear later in the article.
• In the Background section, you mention prisoners of war in both the first and third paragraphs. I doubt this particular group of POWs was used all round the country building prefabs.
• "Following the London Blitz of the Second World War, London was facing a severe housing shortage." - Rather than repeat the word London too many times, you could say "Following the London Blitz of the Second World War, the capital was facing a severe housing shortage."
• Wikilink Arthurian legend.
• Residents were offered a vote between the estate's demolition or transfer of the estate to a private housing association, which would also demolish the properties." - This sentence is unclear.
• "Conservationists have fought to save the estate from demolition, which they claim is a unique surviving example of twentieth-century architecture." - In this sentence, the word "which" is wrongly used and seems to refer to demolition.
• "Under listing guidelines for twentieth-century buildings, only buildings with few moderations should be listed; in the case of Excalibur, most buildings have modified windows and doors" - I think you mean "alterations" or "modernisations".
• "The project is proposed by Lewisham Council and L&Q who jointly claim that the Excalibur Estate falls short of the standards required by the Decent Homes Standard." - Who or what is "L&Q"?
• Some of the paragraphs have no references in them.
• I have done a few minor copyedits.
• The referencing in general is not up to the standard needed by a GA. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Review noted, shall consider the recommendations and amend accordingly. Mtaylor848 (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I am failing this nomination as no efforts have been made to improve the article as mentioned in my review above. In particular, the article does not conform to the MOS guidelines with regard to lead, and the referencing is inadequate. If these matters are addressed, the article could be renominated. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Answer to "Information Required"

The markup seems broken, and I cannot put my answer "under" your question, whatever I try, so I created an own headline.

I was shown around the Estate in January 2014, and the church still seemed operational (banners and info in the display). I might be able to gather more details when visiting London later this year (I am in Germany).

I'd be interested in the answers too. Around here there were (ten)thousands of barracks and Nissen huts, built in 1945-47 for the influx of German refugees from Eastern Europe. Only a handful of them have survived, mostly as sheds. Certainly not in a compound like Excalibur, even though they were planned and built like that.--Zipor haNefesch (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Comments September 2018

Background

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The truth about the prefab Estate Excalibur Catford London, which in the case of the prefabs on Excalibur Estate were always intended to be a sustainable home system purpose built as an example of prefabricated homes of the future including the design of the estate. The prefabs on Excalibur Estate exceeded the expectation of Uni-Seco the prefab manufacture in every way, it was taken over by Lewisham Council from the LCC in 1965.

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When the Decent Homes Standard ref https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-decent-home-definition-and-guidance came into force in 2000, Lewisham Council then decided this would be an opportunity to get rid of the prefabs once and for all as they as a council have failed in the past to accomplish, and that Lewisham Council despised the prefabs in every way. After years of neglecting the estate, Lewisham Council had commissioned an survey to survey the prefabs as viable homes, actually none of the prefabs were surveyed, the result of the survey in general terms claimed that the cost of improving the prefabs was estimated as being £78,000 per prefab. This estimate was grossly over estimated as everyone was to expect, and that Lewisham Council couldn't explain the lack of repairs or improvements to the homes on Excalibur leading up to 2000 that then would now cost "£78,000" each to improve and repair. Needless to say improving the prefabs would not arrive at "£78,000, it is interesting to note that most prefabs never even had central heating until late 2003, before then tenants were heating their homes and hot water via a coal fire.

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But the Decent Homes standard had not stated nothing more than to improve the living conditions of tenants that had been neglected by Landlords in the past, decent homes standard had asked that homes under social housing was clean had a bath room less than 20 years old, a kitchen less than 20 years old, was free from mould and damp, had replacement windows and doors where necessary. Decent Homes also allowed for the tenant to have their say on what should be repaired or improved to their home to improve their living conditions as well. Lewisham Council misused the order given by the Decent Homes standard to enforce getting rid of the Excalibur Estate in its entirety claiming this was an instruction ordered by the decent homes standard, in partnership with L&Q how ever that was agreed? began the dismantling of Excalibur Estate, and from 2006. L&Q now deny any partnership with Lewisham council at any time, but have achieve being the only developer to buy land on the Excalibur Estate at the present time. Every original resident on the Excalibur estate as compensation for their old prefab from 2008 was promised a new home built by L&Q if the residents voted for what was a regeneration scheme for the estate as proposed by L&Q.

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At the beginning when L&Q were meeting with residents in 2007 according to both Lewisham Council and L&Q the only option for the estate as to survive was via a stock transfer this was of cause miss-leading the residents as there was no intention of a stock transfer to L&Q, and even so L&Q admitted that any stock transfer would include demolition of the prefabs which was something the residents were completely against. It begs the question who was really behind the destruction of this once lovely housing estate, as Lewisham Council is one of the poorest Councils in London. The then Mayor of Lewisham Mr Bullock informed the residents of Excalibur if they do not vote for L&Qs regeneration scheme he would then let the prefabs rot, which was an understatement as Lewisham Council were in fact neglecting the prefabs anyway. To cut a long story short the Excalibur Estate became a TMO in 1991 and the sol reason this was granted for the Estate was to care for the future of the estate repair and improve the prefabs for future generations, but Lewisham Council refused to support the Excalibur TMO financially and so on obliviously bidding their time for the first opportunity to find a reason to rid them selves of the prefabs on Excalibur Estate. Lewisham Council hadn't actually found a reason to demolish the estate, they just bullied the resident into submission claiming that the decent homes standard backed up the decision to demolish the prefabs.

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The Estate now is a mere shadow of it forma self, a dustbin for the local fly tippers, a blank canvass for the graffiti menace, a hiding place for drug users and pushers, and other vices, even the dog walker will leave their dogs waste on the estate showing no respect for the residents who still live on the older part of estate. As for L&Q promising a home for every resident, this was also a lie, as 80% of residents on the Excalibur Estate have been moved away never to return, only a few tenants achieved moving into a new home on the L&Q portion of the Estate in the north west corner, these homes are a shambles with a life span of may be ten years they most differently will not achieve the life of a prefab of 71 years. L&Q had plans to build on the whole of the land here once the prefabs had been demolished, but even that has been quashed by L&Q as a none viable venture especially after having their phase 2 planning permission turn down. It is sad to think the Excalibur Estate was once a little piece of the country side in Catford, with zero crime, and a great community. Lewisham Council have at the present time left the estate in disrepair open to vandalism, drug abuse, and so on.

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This is a brief and accurate account of Excalibur estate since 2000, the remaining edit to this Wikipedia page has other facts about the estate put in as the original page was a failure regards how the residents of Excalibur have been treated, some of whom have lived on the estate for over 50 years and one resident lived here since 1947 sadly died a few years ago, and the smear put upon the Uni-Seco prefabs and prefabs in general as to drop the idea of affordable homes which most people of the UK could afford to buy and enjoy living in. The smear upon the prefab was generated by ignorance, the building trade and the government who feared losing the franchise and control of home building in this country boosting extortionate house prices on the slightest twitch to the economy.

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• No prisoner of war built these prefabs. Prefab homes was to be the solution to the housing problem in the UK, not a solution to the war housing problem.
• The prefabs on Excalibur Estate did not have a 10 years life span, in fact there is no mention that Uni-Seco claimed the prefabs would only last 10 years in any of there documentation, this was meant to be the future of housing in Britain, Homes that everyone could afford. The prefabs were designed to be modified, extended and improved upon. The Excalibur Estate was a lovely place to live at one time but since 2011, Lewisham council have decanted the residents, and at present except for L&Qs new portion of the estate which is fenced off from the main estate, Excalibur Estate is now a run down shadow of its forma self, used as a rubbish tip by local residents, dog walkers leave their dog waste everywhere, and a place for drug dealing, and other vices.

Etymology

The estate is so called because the streets are named after characters from Arthurian legend. The precise reason for these street names were to compliment the Downham Estate of which the road system to this estate were also to compliment the Arthurian stories. The Downham Estate was completed in 1937. The Excalibur Estate was so named by committee in 1970 which included the naming of the streets at the same time. >ref name="Largest postwar prefab estate to be demolished | Society | The Guardian" >https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jan/02/postwar-prefab-houses-demolition-london paragraph 6</ref>

The estate

The estate consists of 187 single storey, two-bedroomed prefabricated bungalows. This is a common mistake by people who know nothing of the history of the Excalibur Estate there were actually 189 prefabs built on site. There are no amenities situated on the estate except for the church, St. Marks. This building is also of a prefabricated construction. St Marks Church was never prefabricated, and was originally two huts. Unlike the flat-roofed houses. The prefabs again were not constructed with flat roofs, the Uni-seco prefab company designed a 7 degree pitch to all their prefab homes, with reference to the sheet-metal barrelled roof prefabs, some prefab manufacturers opted for a barrel roof as part of the prefab homes competition to win contracts to build future prefab homes in Britain, these manufacturer's worked with what materials they had. Catford has a variety of shops and railway stations, the nearest railway station to the estate being Bellingham.

Conservation battle

Conservationists have fought to save the estate from demolition, (no they have not) which they claim is a unique surviving example of twentieth-century architecture. Actually the Excalibur Estate was meant to have been a prime example of future affordable housing, that is why there was no demolition date set for the prefabs on the estate after they were built. Thus far they have succeeded in seeing Grade II listing applied by English Heritage to six buildings on the estate including St. Mark's Church. No this is not at all true, St Marks Church is own by the Church of England and is neither listed, the Church of England also refused to sell the land where the church stands for new homes planned for the location, which scuppered any chance of some residents on the Excalibur Estate of gaining a new home from L&Q. The conservation of the estate has been spearheaded by the Twentieth Century Society; claiming that the overall layout and planning of the estate is key to its uniqueness and that just keeping six buildings and surrounding them with new houses does not suffice. Despite the Twentieth Century Society campaigning for the entire estate (this never took place) to be made a conservation area and English Heritage recommending 21 buildings be listed, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport would only go so far as to list six of the buildings. Under listing guidelines for twentieth-century buildings, only buildings with few moderations should be listed; in the case of Excalibur, most buildings have modified (no they have not been modified) windows and doors. not true the only homes modified were the prefabs that had been purchased from the Council 24 of them, any doors that were replaced were of traditional materials and design of the of the 1940s, English Heritage except modern replacement to windows and doors as part of the listed property in fact all the prefabs could have been listed, as the main structure of all the prefabs were unchanged since 1947. A prominent local

Demolition proposals

ewisham Council have rebutted claims that the houses have historical significance (of cause they would) and have maintained that it would be "virtually impossible to bring them up to modern standards (no this is totally inaccurate), a view shared by a number of residents, who are mainly council tenants. we were all council tenants, it was only members of the L&Q steering group all 6 once 11 members of this group who have been meeting since 2008 agreed with Lewisham Council on this matter and were at the forefront of continuing the demise of Excalibur Estate in every way" The council have repeatedly argued that residents favoured redevelopment; citing a recent poll amongst residents in which 56 percent voted in favour of redevelopment. Except this result was manufactured, as some tenant partners were also made tenants before this vote as to increase the vote "yes" for L&Qs regeneration plans, and in 2017 turn out not to be a regeneration scheme at all. Conservationists have argued this result was inevitable as residents felt there was very little prospect of the council spending any money on their homes, leaving them in outdated accommodation, (not true). The residents were in fact left in decaying homes which Lewisham Council have never been brought to account for. Of the estate Lewisham Council stated "We have a responsibility under the national Decent Homes programme to bring all its housing up to a recognised standard. Decent homes did not mean that at all, or is this a interpretation of the Decent Homes Standard, and in 2007 Lewisham Council created the ALMO Lewisham Homes as a get out clause for the neglect to all their 30,000 homes in the borough up to that date. Therefore since 2001 with 10 years to achieve decent home standard Lewisham Council neglected to improve the prefabs in any way, continue to charge rent and secure with L&Q a plan to rid Catford London of this once peaceful lovely housing estate . It simply is not financially viable to refurbish the estate, yes it was financially viable, Lewisham Council have spent more money decanting the estate, than it would have cost to improve the estate."

As of 2013, the London Borough of Lewisham proposes to demolish all of the properties on the 12 acres (4.9 ha) site. The proposal to demolish the estate was set by L&Q in 2008 when L&Q proposed a stock transfer, which no one on the estate agreed to or applied for, in which case L&Q also proposed demolition of the whole of Excalibur Estate even if they became the new Landlord, coincidently no stock transfer was officially reported as taking place. L&Q had also promised a new home for every original resident on the estate. This does not seem to be taking place as only a few residents have achieved receiving a new homes under L&Q, as most residents from the estate have been moved away never to return. ClemRutter (talk) 23:02, 8 September 2018 (UTC) ClemRutter (talk) 23:18, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Second comment

It seems my edit to the page Excalibur Estate is controversial and has been taken off therefore so much for free speech which Wikipedia seem to ignore especially when it comes to actual facts, the rule of thumb as mentioned for one of the reason why this has taken place. Rule of thumb means of estimation made according to a rough and ready practical rule, not based on science or exact measurement, therefore I did not need to follow Wikipedia's rule of thumb as to precisely reference any or all of my edit to the page, and nor has Wikipedia or the author of this page produced any facts on this page either, even by the rule of thumb. I have lived on the Excalibur Estate a long time, and L&Q and Lewisham Council have now denied all facts concerning my estate.

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I challenge Wikipedia and the author to produce facts about the Excalibur estate as it once was which my family enjoyed for 24 years and how it has become all by hands Lewisham Council and L&Q as to rid Catford of the prefabs on Excalibur Estate. And include how L&Q have been able to build their homes on the north western quarter of Excalibur Estate in the first place, it seems no one wants to address that subject, but I am not surprised in this weak PC existence we live under.

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The dribble that is present on this Wikipedia page at the present time is outrageously bad. The apparent facts about prisoners of war building the prefabs, which is not true and Wikipedia or the author of this myth has not show that this is a fact, whereas I can prove that one of the surviving prisons of war present at the construction site here in Catford in 1946/47 wrote a letter to one of the original members of Excalibur Estate stating he and his Conrad's only painted the prefabs, had nothing to do with its construction. Facts about the Uni-Seco prefabs, which is missing or not research by the author/s of this page or that they care less about or knew of the prefab manufacturer Uni-Seco, and the Uni-Seco plan for building further prefab homes into the 1960s and even beyond, the Uni-Seco prefab innovation of future housing was scuppered by the government and the building trade, in panic over home production methods of producing affordable homes for the population well into the future, how wonderful that would have been.

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As important nothing has been said about how L&Q have been able to build here. As to reference any of my edit to this page L&Q will deny any partnership with Lewisham Council, Lewisham Council likewise, even when I stated I could present documents to the agents of L&Q this year I would be wasting my time. But there are enough remaining residents on the estate that know the truth. Considering the remaining residents of Excalibur will not receive a new home from L&Q as promised which I stated to a number of residents 5 years ago. L&Qs plan to build 371 homes on site has now fallen through, I have a copy of the planning permission which states exactly that, this was reduced to 57 homes in 2016 which have been completed now, there is no information on L&Qs new estate promoting any sign that the 57 homes at present will be extended to 371 homes which was evident a few years ago.

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L&Q to prove this claim is inaccurate, should then complete the 371 homes as promised, and produce evidence that this is the case or remain silent, it also cost L&Q over £500,000 to remove just 40 prefabs in 2014 in the area they have now built on, times that by the remaining 146 prefabs in todays money will cost L&Q £1,825.000 go right ahead L&Q demolish the rest of the estate fill your boots. It also seems Lewisham Council have yet again failed to rid them selves of the prefabs on Excalibur Estate, the prefabs live on, Lewisham Council also need to now clean up and improve the prefabs still occupied by their tenants or continue to neglect their duty as the Landlord to these residents. Is that controversial enough.

Please understand that we never publish peoples opinions. We need a reference to show where that was published- add any further comments here ClemRutter (talk) 11:32, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Meliot327, there are a few resources that may be helpful in getting into Wikipedia-style writing: There is the Editing Help page, which explains how to add citations/references as well as other editing questions and some of the philosophy behind the project. It also contains tons of links to further reading about editing and Wikipedia.

Re finding sources: Shouldn't at least part of the story be found in the proceedings of Catford Council? I am not sure how exactly that works in the UK, but here the council is obligated to publish the minutes and make them available to the interested public. A search of the Lewisham council page found two pages with proceedings of various council meetings discussing "Excalibur". Maybe they are helpful? Some subjects are difficult to write about, because they aren't interesting enough for the newspaper editors ..., but I think Council proceedings should be considered valid references, as they are published. --Zipor haNefesch (talk) 17:46, 10 September 2018 (UTC)