Talk:Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972)

page name

The name of this page isn't very vernacular. Shouldn't it be moved to a more common usage name in line with the likes of Cabinet of the United Kingdom or Cabinet of Canada?Traditional unionist (talk) 16:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...I think I disagree with you there actually. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 18:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Traditional unionist (talk • contribs) 13:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the cabinet of the UK and the PC are different things, as they were in NI too; I could've been an PC (NI) without be in the cabinet. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Mea culpa, I see there is; Privy Council of Northern Ireland also... --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the cabinet, only using its formal and verbose name.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland was the title given to the Government, why change it.--Padraig (talk) 14:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

because if you asked me what it was (aside from knowing it now) I wouldn't have a clue. No one knows what the Exec Comm of the UK privy Council is, everyone knows what the cabinet it. It should be standardised to westminster style norms, such as the above examples of the UK and Canada.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Standardised to Westminster style norms, your forgetting one major difference between the British Governments cabinet is answerable to parliament, that was not the case with the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland although it functioned as the cabinet and government it was above the Parliament of Northern Ireland and wasn't accountable to it.--Padraig (talk) 16:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The cabinet in the UK is not answerable to Parliament either. It is answerable to the Monarch, just as the NI Cabinet was.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The page should be moved back the current title just causes confusion with the current Cabinet of Northern Ireland --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 15:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree it wasn't know as the Cabinet, it was the Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Padraig, the move was premature and should be moved back now.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 01:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

WHat is the basis for your assertion Padraig? It was NEVER known as the Executive Committee of anything. The Cabinet Secretariat files mentioned here are the CAB/4 files detailing the discussions of every CABINET meeting from 1921 to 1972. Every academic work of the period refers to the cabinet, not the Executive Committee. There is no confusion with the modern Executive, as that is what it is called in the local vernacular. A cabinet it may be, but it is not called that. The current title is unnecessarily verbose, is not in the style of comparable bodies such as the UK or Canadian cabinets, and is in a form alien to the venacular. There is no reason to have it at this name.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think it should be expanded and moved to Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972) its seems silly to have an article on the cabinet and not the government. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 18:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The cabinet is the government.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't government includeds all the departments and civil service the Cabinet is just the senior members of the government. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The difference here is so small as to not make it worthwhile. Nonetheless, this is an article with a specific place to fit, and its current title isn't suitable.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I couldnt disagree with you more. Barry is bang on - the Government is more important. This should only be a sub article.--Vintagekits (talk) 19:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I really don't see what the problem is here. Why wouldn't there be a page on the Cabinet of Northern Ireland called the Cabinet of Northern Ireland? This was one of the most important bodies in Northern Ireland for 50 of the last 100 years.Traditional unionist (talk) 19:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not easy. A short discussion takes place, no one will respond so I make a change. Then we have a flurry of activity to revert my change and the radio silence reestablishes when I try to discuss it. How can we arrive at something if discussion will not be opened? I have not seen any reason to keep this page here.Traditional unionist (talk) 22:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

And I have not seen any reason to move it from its proper title to something it was never called.--Padraig (talk) 23:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

But that is not a valid argument, given that it is wrong. Ken Bloomfield was Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, that was his job title! Several academic works refer to it directly, and never as the executive committee of anything. I know, I wrote a 10,000 word dissertation on a period of its history.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry it is a very valid arguement, the Executive Council of Northern Ireland and the Executive Council of Southern Ireland where setup under the Government of Ireland Act that partitioned Ireland. We can't just change proper names and titles because you want to alter what the Executive was, or how it functioned.--Padraig (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

So why are there articles called the Cabinet of the United Kingdom or the Cabinet of Canada or ANY former dominion, for the situation is identical. This article is named in a verbose manner, despite its techincal accuracy, and should be moved to the vernacular. That will be much more useful.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the title of the British or Canadian Cabinet articles, the Executive Council of Northern Ireland was sub-ordinate to the Westminster Parliament and not equal to it.--Padraig (talk) 23:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't matter, an identically system was put in place, just as in the dominions. Where the order of precedence lies has no relevance whatsoever.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouild advise that you concentrate your efforts on creating the Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972) article, or would that be too constructive? --Vintagekits (talk) 00:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Tone down your attitude and debate the topic at hand.Traditional unionist (talk) 00:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought the topic at hand was the name of the article and the consensus was that Cabinet of Northern Ireland was no the best title. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 01:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

But we haven't established an adequate rationale for this consensus. The name is not one recognisable to anyone familiar with the subject matter, never mind those not familiar. It is and was referred to as the Cabinet, just as compatible bodies are.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

1. It would cause confusion with regards to the current Cabinet the (Executive Committee) do a search on Cabinet of Northern Ireland and 2. As I said before its silly to have an article on the cabinet but not the Government it would be like having a Cabinet of Scotland artilce but no Scottish Government --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 01:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC).

That google search throws up cabinets of all hues. While the current executive is a cabinet, just as the assembly is actually a parliament neither are called so officially or in the vernacular. Silly it may be, but that is no reason to keep this page where it is. Indeed your argument is a good one for moving this one! Yes a Government page should exist, but I don't see how that stops this page being moved.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The NI Assembly is not a Parliament and is never referred to as such the Executive Committee is a Cabinet so that is a reason to stop the page being moved also the reason it should not exist is there would be massive crossover between the Government artice and this one. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 16:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed a parliament to the same extent as the Scotish parliament (ours does have tax raising powers, contrary to popular belief). On your second point, then why do any of the cabinet articles exist? You contend above that there is sifficient difference to make it viable, so why contest this move?Traditional unionist (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Having tax powers does not make it a Parliament, and I have already stated why I contest the move. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 21:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• I had originally thought this page should stay as it is. Having looked into the matter, however, it becomes apparent that no one at the time called this anything other than the Cabinet of Northern Ireland, I would, therefore, support a move to this. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 21:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet your rationale does not stack up. Maybe there should be a Govt page, that is in no way a reason for keeping this page here.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand. This page should be moved, to Cabinet/Gov. of NI. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 12:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is probably enough material for separate pages.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You're confusing me now! --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The title of this page is ridiculous, and contravenes WP:COMMONNAME. Mooretwin (talk) 23:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Page name again

Perhaps both users who have moved this to where it is now could defend that action? Where are the sources?Traditional unionist (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

It was commonly called the Executive Committee. It was also called this in the Government of Ireland Act 1920, see point 5.--Googlechrome (talk) 12:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

That is not an assertion of WP:COMMONNAME. Who called it "the executive committee"?Traditional unionist (talk) 12:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Commonname doesn't always apply look at The Good Friday Agreement article. BigDunc^Talk 13:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The Belfast Agreement doesn't actually have a short name, only a long name, and that is a very very long name. Nonetheless, there are plenty of RS for Belfast Agreement. No one has offered any here.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Executive Committee is the name of the current executive the current title provides a perfect dab.--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 01:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The Northern Ireland Executive is the common name for the current cabinet. Northern Ireland Cabinet is the common name for this one. Therefore it should be at Northern Ireland cabinet, unless someone else has sources that suggest otherwise.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Disagree as per my points raised in the feb discussion, still support the move to Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972).

Where are your sources to support your view?Traditional unionist (talk) 12:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Under WP:COMMONNAME this article should be called Government of Northern Ireland or Northern Ireland Cabinet (depending on the extent of the article) Mooretwin (talk) 20:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This article should be moved as per above. Mooretwin (talk) 15:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

As I said above WP:COMMONNAME doesn't always apply look at the Good Friday agreement. BigDunc^Talk 15:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

????What do you mean? The Agreement is listed under a common name (i.e. Belfast Agreement). In any case, each article should be considered on its own merits - the current article name is just crazy. Mooretwin (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thats debateable Good friday agreement is a very common name of it and I am aware that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I am just pointing out that it doesn't always apply. BigDunc^Talk 16:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

GFA certainly is a very common name for it. So too is Belfast Agreement! Can we get back to discussing the name of this article? Mooretwin (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Quite. Can we have sourced comments please? I will source my comments tomorrow.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Shall I put in a RM? Mooretwin (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

only if the new title is going to be Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972)--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 22:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with Barryob. BigDunc^Talk 22:43, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. Mooretwin (talk) 17:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no evidence to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 20:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland → Government of Northern Ireland (1921-1972) — Re. WP:COMMONNAME — Mooretwin (talk) 17:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose No rational is given other than WP:COMMONNAME, and that has not to-date been established. The official title is currently used in the article, why change it. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
• The common name for the body officially titled what thos article is called, was the cabinet. That is a fact.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks TU for that comment, but having read the two previous sections I still have yet to see the supporting sourses. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

yes. My bad. The books are not to hand right now, and havent been for a while. Long storyTraditional unionist (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Well, there's a surprise: Domer48 opposed a request that I made. Where are his "sourses" that "Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland" was the common name? Does he really believe that is how it was referred to? I think not. The lead even states: Generally known as either the cabinet or the Government - is Domer48 saying that this is wrong and should be deleted? Mooretwin (talk) 01:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Mooretwin I suggest you remain civil and follow the talk page guidlines. Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will not help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia. You have been warned already about this type of conduct, so stop now. --Domer48_'fenian' 09:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I note your failure to address the questions, which are relevant to this article. I'll ask again:

• Where are your sources that "Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland" was the common name?
• Do you believe that the statement in the lead that says Generally known as either the cabinet or the Government should be deleted?

Mooretwin (talk) 19:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Note the failure to answer the above questions. Mooretwin (talk) 21:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 2 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972), per the discussion below, with a new redirect from Government of Northern Ireland (1921–72). Dekimasuよ! 03:52, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

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Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland → Government of Northern Ireland (1921–72) – This was the common name of this body. It was never known in common usage as the 'Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland'. Mooretwin (talk) 19:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

The Government’s own publications referred to the “Government of Northern Ireland”, e.g. this Ministry of Agriculture report

And here are other sources that support this move:

UK Elections web site, page on Government of Northern Ireland

Nicholas Mansergh, The Government of Northern Ireland

R. J. Lawrence (1965), The Government of Northern Ireland: Public Finance and Public Services, 1921-1964

Alan O’Day, Political violence in Northern Ireland: conflict and conflict resolution – reference to appointees to Boundary Commission by Government of Irish Free State and Government of Northern Ireland.

Martin Minogue, Local Government in Britain

Paul Bew et al, The State in Northern Ireland, 1921-72

Michael J Kennedy et al, Division and Consensus: The politics of cross-border relations in Ireland

Colin Pilkington, Devolution in Britain Today

Title of trade union “Association of Civil Servants in the Government of Northern Ireland”

Irish History for Dummies

Becky Conekin, The Autobiography of a Nation: the 1951 Festival of Britain

Jorgen Rasmussen, The Process of Politics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mooretwin (talk • contribs) 19:39, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Support. There are a minuscule amount of sources that use "Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland". Thinker78 (talk) 07:04, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

• Move to Government of Northern Ireland (1921–1972) per WP:DATERANGE. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:11, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Executive Committee for Northern Ireland

In case anybody still cares, let me point out that the legal name of the body was never "The Executive Committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland". The body could be described as "an executive committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland"; for all I know it may well have been the only executive committee of that particular privy council; but that was never its formal name. S.8(5) of the 1920 act as enacted provided for two executive committees of the Privy Council of Ireland, one to be named the "Executive Committee for Northern Ireland" and the other the "Executive Committee for Southern Ireland". The former was called into being in 1921; the latter never was. The Irish Free State (Consequential Provisions) Act 1922 created the Privy Council of Northern Ireland and search-replaced "Privy Council of Ireland" in the 1920 act; so the Executive Committee for Northern Ireland changed from being an executive committee of the Privy Council of Ireland (one of two such) to being an executive committee of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland (one and only?); but its name was unchanged — Executive Committee for Northern Ireland. jnestorius^(talk) 17:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)