Talk:Extermination camp/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Majdanek

While the footnote to the listing of this camp indicated that a lower number of dead had resulted from the recent research of Tomasz Kranz, director of the Research Department of the State Museum at Majdanek, it did not cite the new number itself - 78,000. Nor had the previous number (360,000) been replaced in the list of camps, and, as a consequence, the total number of dead at the bottom of the list was uncorrect, too, being too high by 282,000. Further the link leading to the the referenced article on the website of the "Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial and Museum" was broken (http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=8)

The new number appears to be thoroughly researched and accepted by the staff of the museum itself: "Kranz claims to have examined all available sources, including the extant fragments of the camp death book, the death registry, the notifications of prisoner deaths that the Nazis sent to parishes in Lublin, testimony at their trial in Dusseldorf in the late 1970s and early 1980s by SS men garrisoned at Majdanek, and accounts by surviving prisoners."

"Before it went to press, Kranz’s article was read by most of the Majdanek museum staff and discussed at a special meeting. No one raised any objections. “The findings are highly authoritative,” said Prof. Zygmunt Mańkowski, chairman of the Majdanek Museum board."

It seemed thus justified to correct all the cited errors and inconsistencies.

Edit: The number of 78,000 dead referenced in the article on the Auschwitz museum's page has been revised further and is now cited as 80,000 on the website of the Majdanek camp memorial itself: http://www.majdanek.eu/articles.php?acid=45. The numbers in the camp list have been updated accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.154.145.192 (talk) 10:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Holocaust denial

This section really needs some citations – there are none so far.

For example,

  “Holocaust deniers often start by pointing out…” 

–How do we know this? Do all holocaust deniers do this? Citations please.

  “Nowadays denial of Holocaust can be also observed as avoiding responsibility for mass murder by blaming countries 
  who were actually victims” 

–It can? Says who? Blame shifting, which is what the editor is trying to get at, is a different than denial/minimization. More of an opinion, unless a citation was provided.

  “Most common deception is being made by using term "Polish death camps" by German press and politicians”

–How do we know this is the “most common” deception? Any citations to aver that this is a common practice? Sounds like a broad generalization. Also, how is it a “deception”? – is the term “Polish death camps” intentionally used to mislead, or is it used to shift blame, distinguish Polish concentration camps from German ones, or some other reason? Still, no citation.

Eyeofpie 10:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eyeofpie (talk • contribs)

Vernichtungslager versus other German terms for "death camp"

The only word used in the German Wikipedia is Vernichtungslager. This can be translated as "extermination camp", but the word Vernichtung literally means "turning into nothing", so "annihilation" is another suitable translation. It is not at all euphemistic. It does not translate "extermination" in the sense of killing undesirable animals (Entschadlung), but does imply both the killing of individual humans and the attempted complete destruction of a group of people.

However, this and other articles also uses Totenlager or Todeslager, terms which are not used in German. Those terms may be calques of the English term "death camp." The site DWDS.de, which searches German corpora, shows that "Totenlager" is actually only used with a different sense of "Lager", meaning "death bed". "Todeslager" is used to mean "death camp", with about 13 hits in the Kernkorpus and 236 uses in Die Zeit, versus 86 in the Kernkorpus and 1091 in Die Zeit for Vernichtungslager. However, Vernichtungslager almost always refers to what we know in English as extermination camps: the Aktion Reinhard camps, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno and so on. Todeslager is used in this sense, but is also often used to refer to Mathausen, Bergen-Belsen and other camps that had horrific death rates.

I think at least Totenlager should be changed to Todeslager. Roches (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Auschwitz Number of Deaths

The text in the table currently says 1.1 (million), the reference [30] says 1.3, the photo of the plaque at the Auschwitz museum shown on the page mentions 1.5. Let's be consistent. I'd say go with the museum number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.47.198.254 (talk) 02:26, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The Holocaust

It is not true that "The Nazi attempts at Jewish genocide are now collectively known as the Holocaust". There are two problems with this sentence, one contentious, the other not. What is not contentious is that "The Holocaust" is not the name for Nazi "attempts at Jewish genocide", it is the name for the wider programme of killings and concentration camps. Not all those caught up in this were Jews. Then there is the far more contentious issue of whether this was an attempt at Jewish genocide at all.Royalcourtier (talk) 02:33, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Concentration Camps =/= Extermination Camps

Perhaps someone's English is faulty? 184.155.120.157 (talk) 00:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Not Just The Holocaust

Where are the other death camps? Death Camp and Extermination Camp are both handled by this article, yet this article only covers the Nazi Holocaust's camps. This seems very narrow for two terms that cover a broader history. The Germans had an extermination camp in Namibia during it's genocide there at the turn of the 20th century, and I'm sure they and other players have had other camps throughout history that I am not immediately aware of. This article needs to be a little broader given it's broad handle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GavinSimmons (talk • contribs) 02:57, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

This Article Should Be Deleted

Holocaust denial trolling
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It is all conjecture, there are no good historical sources, most are just books with photos and nothing is clear to support this article's viewpoint. The Gerstein often cited is thoroughly debunked. Finally this article is a POV not a factual article so it should be removed. Whether or not the camps were for extermination is debated but mostly discredited with little scientific evidence. However there is monumental evidence for fabrication, revision, hoax, and deceiving testimony which was used as post war propaganda by russia, america, and jewish interests to push incorrect beliefs that these camps were extermination camps. In light of all this, this article should be either removed or a disclaimer needs to be added. This simply cannot hold up to the light of truth any longer. See: http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/holocaust-genocidal-gas-chambers-auschwitz-dachau-majdanek-hoax-museum/ http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p115_Hall.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.90.4.176 (talk) 15:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

No. This article is well referenced with reliable sources. - Eron^Talk 16:53, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The article has numerous WP:RS sources which support what is stated by mainline historians. What you want added is WP:fringe, at best; has been given WP:Undue weight and what you have written, which was reverted, violates: WP:OR and WP:NPOV, to say the least. Kierzek (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

chemically manufactured poison gas during the secretive Action T4

Carbon monoxide isn't exactly chemically manufactured poison gas.Xx234 (talk) 07:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Merge

Death camp is just another term for Extermination Camp. 10:00, 18 November 2005

Other means of extermination

The last paragraph in this section reads:

"Robert Conquest[23] argues that the regime in labour camps in the Soviet Union, principally those in Siberia, was designed to bring about the death of prisoners after extracting 3–6 months' labour from them. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn [24] concurs with him."

Since this is an article about German extermination camps during the Nazi period, I cannot see that this paragraph is relevant. I suggest that it be deleted. Filursiax (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Aerial photo of Auschwitz Birkenau is mislabeled.

The photo only shows Crematoriums II and III. Krema I was in the main Auschwitz camp, several miles away. Currently, Krema III is labelled correctly, Krema II is labelled as Krema I and the building or structure labelled as Krema II was something else, not directly related to the gassing / cremation process. --Stickie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.57.212 (talk) 09:37, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

were in Occupied Poland

But some of the camps were in annexed lands, i.e. in Reich and the other ones in GG.Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

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Main image

Hi. The main image in the infobox is only displaying the Nazi extermination camps in Poland. Is there an image available that show all of the Nazi extermination camps? RhinoMind (talk) 01:59, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Israel is not in Europe.

Except for membership in UEFA and various other international relationships, Israel is not part of Europe. Any objection to deleting the word "European" from the description of the countries where Holocaust denial is a crime? Result:

"Holocaust denial has been thoroughly discredited by scholars and is a criminal offence in the following countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, and Switzerland."

Marzolian (talk) 06:31, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Attribution of Image sources

I have added refs to two images which are from the Auschwitz album, but they have been deleted presumably a vandal. All too common these days! Does the vandal have a valid argument?86.188.77.110 (talk) 17:41, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Soviet camps

The Soviet forced labour camps were extermination camps, as prisoners were sent there to be worked to death. (5.81.222.173 (talk) 16:58, 6 August 2017 (UTC))

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Truth About Camps

Information to be added or removed: link to an external website: https://en.truthaboutcamps.eu/ Explanation of issue: Information on the website fulfils the content on the wiki page, has additional information regarding the Auschwitz Camp personnel, Krzysztof Kapłon at IPN (talk) 13:32, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Note COI by requesting user. The website is run by the controversial IPN. The IPN, since 2015, has been promoting revisionism on Polish-Jewish issues.[1] The French government recently expressed its regret over the role of the IPN in "serious disturbances" to an academic conference on the Holocaust in Paris, which included antisemitic remarks.[2] This is clearly not a suitable site to link to. Icewhiz (talk) 13:48, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  He declared his COI and is making a request on the talk, which is EXACTLY what he's suppose to do. The rest of your comment about IPN is pure nonsense, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  As pointed out by this paper in the Nationalities Papers peer reviewed journal - "the activities of the IPN became quite controversial". I sourced my assertions above from RSes. While it is unfortunate you seem to disagree with what RSes write on this matter, the picture painted by reputable sources is rather clear. Icewhiz (talk) 06:33, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

• Not here - this particular article is too general for that link. However, the link can be used in articles more narrowly focused articles.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:16, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Jasenovac

Hey Wikipedians! I'm a bit surprised to see that Jasenovac is not included in the Death toll list, as it is listed as the extermination camp in both maps in this article and on its Wiki page. Is there any particular reason it was excluded? Thanks. Vygr (talk) 17:45, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Gulags

The Soviet gulags have been described as extermination camps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.252.111 (talk) 11:10, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Lede?

The current lede says this:

Nazi Germany built extermination camps (also called death camps or killing centers) during the Holocaust in World War II to systematically murder millions of Jews. Others were murdered at the death camps as well, including Poles, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, and Roma.

The first sentence is NPOV and focuses far too strongly on Jews. "built extermination camps...to murder millions of Jews." The way this is written makes it sound like the primary purpose of these facilities, and the great horror, is the murder of Jews (as if they're the most important, and everyone else is an afterthought). The lede should say

Nazi Germany built extermination camps (also called death camps or killing centers) during the Holocaust in World War II to systematically murder millions of people, including Jews, Poles, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, and Roma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phil153 (talk • contribs)

The principal Nazi enmity was against Jews. Please read our article on the Wannsee Conference and Final Solution. Other groups were targeted, none so specifically for extermination. I've taken the liberty of amending the section title to something less oinflammatory. I have no strong objection to rewording, but the primary purpose of the camps was to murder millions of Jews, and to exterminate them as a race/religion. Acroterion (talk) 11:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I've not looked at the breakdown for other extermination camps yet, but at Auschwitz concentration camp#Death toll the breakdown there does suggest the vast majority of those murdered there were Jews. I've recently removed an unreferenced addition regarding the mentally ill from the lead of this article. I'm not taking a position as to whether the mentally ill were murdered or not at the extermination camps, only that since it isn't mentioned in the article it doesn't belong in the lead. Without references the addition appears to be a good-faith assumption that as the Nazis murdered "Jews . . . Poles, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, and Roma" and others such as the mentally ill during the Holocaust that all those groups were murdered at the extermination camps, but as this article says "3,115,000 – 3,215,000" is the estimate of people murdered at the extermination camps, which leaves approximately eight million people murdered at the other concentration camps.

Or if TL:DR, what's the breakdown of people murdered at the extermination camps? FDW777 (talk) 11:07, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Maly Trostenets

I've tried to work on the section on the classification of the camps and to try to improve that section of the article a little. Any thoughts on which of the 2 categories listed Maly Trostenets should be included under?

Maly Trostenets is not one of the 6 death camps per the main Holocaust Museum References, see the discussion below is Six, Seven, Eight. - - Prairieplant (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Reference formats

I just split the books into Bibliography and Further reading sections. Bibliography includes books cited inline in the text, and have sfn (short format notes) in the References list. Further reading is for books that were not cited inline in the article. I used search to find the author names. The Citations section is now called References. If you see a sfn in the References, like Arad, 1999 p. 37, then click on Arad and it will bring you to the full citation for Arad's work. The sfn style was already in use in the article; I expanded to authors whose works were cited several times on different pages of their book. The sfn template uses curly brackets but does not need ref before and after. I hope this makes it easier to see the authors cited frequently. --Prairieplant (talk) 09:26, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Six, seven, eight camps

Recent changes to the lead of this article count six extermination camps. The infobox names seven camps. A table in the article names eight camps, and totals the number killed at the eight camps. I do not know which are the six. The seven include Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, Trostenets. The eight camps in the table include the previous seven and adds Sajmište. The article (main text, not the lead) refers to seven in the text and six in the lead and eight in the table in the text, and seven in the infobox

Can someone, perhaps Kingerikthesecond or Driverofknowledge or Robby.is.on or any other with knowledge of the sources, make this article consistent on the issue of the number of camps? More people were killed at all the other facilities under many names by Nazis, so this article addresses a subset of the total, and means to include 6 or 7 or 8 camps. Whichever camps are the subject of the article might be listed by name as the last sentence of the first paragraph of the lead section, again in the infobox the same ones, and in the body of the article in the first paragraph of the section titled Definition, and in the table in the Death toll section. I made changes to the text already in an effort to clarify that this a classification made by the Nazis, when at least in my eyes, all their camps were extermination camps. I have not read the sources saying in this century we should stick to explaining the original Nazi structure, so I think someone who has read it or knows it, ought to make this article clear on the camps it means to discuss. --Prairieplant (talk) 18:15, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Prairieplant For scholarly institutes like Yad vashem and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. They only count six for the death camps, that were primarily used to exterminate Jews. The 6 death camps, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau were used to carry out the systematic mass murder of Jews as part of the Final Solution https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/about/final-solution/death-camps.html#narrative_info The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum says(Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka Auschwitz-Birkenau Majdanek)were primarily used to exterminate Jews.https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/killing-centers-an-overview That is why I wrote it like that. To match with what scholarly institutes say about the subject.Driverofknowledge (talk) 18:33, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Prairieplant The white are sites of mass shootings into remote ravines. Marked with white skulls, include Bronna Góra, Ponary and others. They were utilized during the 'Holocaust by bullets'.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WW2-Holocaust-Poland.PNGDriverofknowledge (talk) 19:00, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I edited the article to include your replies. The part I did not edit is the table in the Death Toll section. At this moment I am using my phone to edit, and I do not want to mess up a table from this little device. Thank you, Driverofknowledge. I did not put a ref for the Holocaust by Bullet, as the long description of the map is not a citation. Have to learn which source was used for that grim bit of history. Can you deal with the table? - - Prairieplant (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Prairieplant what do you want to do with the chart exactly?Driverofknowledge (talk) 22:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Driverofknowledge, the chart includes 8 camps. The article is about 6 camps, mainly. The 2 added camps need a subheading, to explain briefly why they are included in the table. Why those 88,000 people are included in the total of over 3 million. Be clear, all of the dead are important; it is clarity in the article, sticking to its topic, that concerns me. I understand that groups not directly part of the Nazi regime set up extermination camps on their own. The lead, the highlights of the article, does not make that clear. Why did anyone add those two camps in the table? That is what I hope could be made clear. If there is no reason to include those 2 camps, then they should be dropped. I did not follow all the wiki links to see what kind of article is written about each camp. I do not know if the information was taken from the wiki article or could be added into the separate articles. Is that clearer? - - Prairieplant (talk)|

Prairieplant It seems they were added. Since some sources do call them extermination camps, maybe we can do a rewrite for that part how would you rewrite it?Driverofknowledge (talk) 03:34, 20 April 2020 (UTC)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajmi%C5%A1te_concentration_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maly_Trostinets_extermination_camp

Prairieplant you got it good Job!

Driverofknowledge, I added two sentences to the end of the lead section mentioning the two camps also discussed in the article, Majdanek concentration camp and Maly Trostenets extermination camp. I do not really know why they are included, so I made up what appears based on the subsection Concentration and extermination camps in the History section. I hope you can improve that short part in the Lead (keeping it short, the lead contains highlights of the article, not new information). As the table has not been changed, I think the reader needs some idea why 6 is the important number, but it grows to 8 for the table.

I came to this article because FDW777 was upset that the Natzweiler-Struthof article added Extermination camp in the infobox, so that link was removed from the infobox for the article about that camp. That editor insisted on only six camps getting that designation. Now there are six or eight, and I leave it to you all to sort it out. --Prairieplant (talk) 10:09, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Driverofknowledge you did a good job with the page!

USSR

Block evasion by User:HarveyCarter, using IPs from Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The gulags have been called extermination camps. They should be mentioned in the article, as prisoners were deliberately worked to death in the Soviet Union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.82.112 (talk) 03:12, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Janowska

I really hope this comment doesn't come across as crass. Should Janowska be included in this article? I've left it in since I am unsure and added a little info from the main Janowska concentration camp article and elsewhere on the shootings that took place. I welcome other opinions on whether or not Janowska should be included in this article.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 June 2020

Please change phrasing "unlucky hordes" in section Pure extermination camps to "condemned souls", "doomed people", or some other language that does not downplay the unfortunate position people sent against their will to the the extermination camps. They were beyond "unlucky", and "horde" has negative connotations. Maxq32 (talk) 20:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. I changed the wording to "victims". Further improvement would be welcomed. VQuakr (talk) 20:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Concentration and extermination camps section

This appears to have some leftover text from the pruning done by @Buidhe:, specifically

The Maly Trostenets extermination camp in the USSR initially operated as a prison camp. It became an extermination camp later in the war with victims undergoing mass shootings. This was supplemented with gassings in a van by exhaust fumes from October 1943. The Sajmište concentration camp operated by the Nazis in Yugoslavia had a gas van stationed for use from March to June 1942. Once the industrial killings were completed, the van was returned to Berlin. After a refit the van was then sent to Maly Trostinets for use at the camp there. The Janowska concentration camp near Lwow (now Lviv) in occupied eastern Poland implemented a selection process. Some prisoners were assigned to work before death. Others were either transported to Bełżec or victims of mass shootings on two slopes in the Piaski sand-hills behind the camp.

I believe this should be removed, but thought it best to raise it here first. FDW777 (talk) 21:49, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

 Removed as unsourced. (t · c) buidhe 21:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

"Others"

@Buidhe:, my edits to the article I've been repeatedly trying to keep out mentions of non-Jews from the lead (such as this), generally because it wasn't mentioned in the article and/or the editor adding the claim was assuming that everyone killed during the Holocaust was killed at an extermination camp. There are three reference for that sentence.

• Reference 1 says The Germans and their collaborators deported roughly 2.7 million Jews and others from occupied Europe to killing centers in German-occupied Poland (my emphasis)
• Reference 2 says In the spring of that year, thousands of Jews, Slovaks, Czechs, Germans, and Poles were murdered in Majdanek
• Reference 3 says Over a million Jews and tens of thousands of Roma, Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war were killed there by November 1944

So I'm kind of mystified why another ref is needed for "others" when each of the three references already cited for the sentence confirms there were "others"? FDW777 (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Reference 3 starts with "German SS and police murdered nearly 2,700,000 Jews in the killing centers either by asphyxiation with poison gas or by shooting." The issues are WP:UNDUE and WP:LEDE; the extermination camps were designed to kill Jews, and the vast majority people killed in them were Jews. Yes, others were killed there, but that wasn't the focus or point of these camps. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Two words is undue? Really? FDW777 (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't know how the tools work very well, so I've done a rather unscientific sampling of the first version of the article in any given year for the last ten years.

• 2020 Others were murdered at the death camps as well, including Poles, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, and Roma
• 2019 to systematically kill millions of Jews, Slavs, Roma, Soviet POWs, political opponents and others whom the Nazis considered "Untermenschen" ("subhumans")
• 2018 to systematically kill millions of Jews, Slavs, Communists, and others whom the Nazis considered "Untermenschen" ("subhumans")
• 2017 to systematically kill millions of Jews, Slavs and others considered "Untermenschen"
• 2016 members of many ethnic and national groups; the Jews however were the primary targets accounting for over 90 percent of the extermination camp death toll.
• 2015 victims from many groups; however, Jews became the main Nazi targets
• 2014 While there were victims from many groups, Jews were the main Nazi targets
• 2013 While there were victims from many groups, Jews were the main targets
• 2012 While there were victims from many groups, Jews were the main targets
• 2011 to systematically kill millions by gassing, mostly Jews

Strange how there's been some variant of "others" in the lead, often in much greater detail than the two words being objected to, for at least ten years. FDW777 (talk) 21:41, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Two words in the first sentence. The lede is only two short paragraphs. Much of the article is not even mentioned in it, much less the first sentence. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Irrelevant. It's a misleading claim without the long-standing qualifier, and two words is hardly undue. FDW777 (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it's highly relevant, and two words in the lede (much less the first sentence) can indeed be WP:UNDUE. That said, I've tried to address your "misleading" concern with this edit. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:02, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. However I think you may have downplayed the number of Jews murdered. The table at Extermination camp#Death toll gives a total of 3,150,000+, and as reference 1 says it was 2.7 million Jews and others, not 2.7 million including others. FDW777 (talk) 22:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It's very tricky to add individual numbers and provide a total as you are doing (see WP:SYNTH); I assume that's why the table doesn't do so. The cited sources give totals of around 2.7 million. I'll modify the language slightly to accommodate this, but for any specific number we should rely on explicit sources, not our own calculations. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That works fine for me. I wasn't suggesting including the larger figure in the lead, just using it to explain the problem with your first version. FDW777 (talk) 22:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Slight problem with annotation of photo

Regarding the annotation of the US aerial photo of Auschwitz II (Birkenau), it's slightly incorrect. Item (1) is Crematorium II (sometimes the numbering varies, but it seems in most accounts, Crematorium I means the one at Auschwitz I), (3) is Crematorium III and (2) is a sewage treatment plant. Crematoria IV and V aren't featured in the photo, just to be clear. --Vometia (talk) 11:18, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Revisiting erasure of Romani deaths from the article

Whether you think it should be in the lede or not, it is problematic that there is now no reference to the mass murder of Roma in the death camps in this article. I understand they represent a small fraction of the total death toll, but that does not make their deaths so insignificant to be unworthy of mention. At least several tens of thousands died in the death camps, and many of those were gassed. Some sources in this regard:

• The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum has the following quote: "The Sinti and Roma tried as best they could to cope with the misery of the camp.... Zigeunerlager in Birkenau existed until August 2, 1944. That evening, the approximately 4,2-4,3 thousand men, women, and children left in the camp were loaded onto trucks and driven to the gas chambers. The prisoners attempted to resist, but the SS crushed their opposition brutally." And: "Of the approximately 23 thousand Sinti and Roma deported to Auschwitz, some 21 thousand died or were murdered in the gas chambers." And: "Soon after the start of the war, the Germans decided to remove the Sinti and Roma from the terrain of the Reich. They were ordered to resettle in the General Government, where they were placed in Jewish ghettos and camps for Jews (over 5 thousand German Sinti and Roma were placed in the Łódź ghetto, and majority of them were murdered soon afterwards at Kulmhof extermination center)." ([3]).
• The Jewish Virtual Library quotes similar scenes from Treblinka, a direct quote from a prisoner there: "'One day, while I was working near the gate, I noticed the Germans and Ukrainians making special preparations...meanwhile the gate opened, and about 1,000 Gypsies were brought in (this was the third transport of Gypsies). About 200 of them were men, and the rest women and children...all the Gypsies were taken to the gas chambers and then burned....'" Also: "According to The Institut Fuer Zeitgeschicthe in Munich, at least 4,000 Roma people were murdered by gas at Auschwitz-Birkenau." ([4])
• From the USHMM: "In the autumn of 1941, German police authorities deported 5,007 Sinti and Lalleri Gypsies from Austria to the ghetto for Jews in Lodz, where they resided in a segregated section.... German SS and police officials deported those who survived these dreadful conditions to the killing center at Chelmno in the first months of 1942. There, along with tens of thousands of Jewish residents of the Lodz ghetto, the Roma died in gas vans, poisoned by carbon monoxide gas." Also: "In late March, the SS murdered approximately 1,700 Roma from the Bialystok region in the gas chambers; they had arrived a few days earlier and many, though by no means all, were ill." ([5])

Somewhere, this deserves mention. Overwhelmingly, the victims of the Germans' gas chambers were Jews, but erasing at least twenty-five thousand Romani victims seems unjustifiable. It is not minimizing the horrific impacts on European Jews to acknowledge other categories of mass murder in the killing centers. Sacxpert (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

They are mentioned (not linked 😦)....perhaps more could be said. As for numbers by group this is not the article that covers that information as it really only covers totals by camp.Moxy- 00:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Sacxpert - Unfortunately this subject is not too well covered on Wikipedia. In my opinion this is more of a general issue on Wikipedia than this specific page. Dunutubble (talk) 16:19, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that we have to break down totals by each group for each camp. I would agree that this is not a good page for that. My point with listing those locations and numbers is to establish that Roma were killed in large numbers in the death camps, and that this occurred in more than one such camp.

As for references in the article, the only one I see in the text is this: "In 1941, the experience gained in the secretive killing of these hospital patients led to the creation of extermination camps for the implementation of the Final Solution. By then, the Jews were already confined to new ghettos and interned in Nazi concentration camps along with other targeted groups, including Roma, and the Soviet POWs." The subsequent text refers to gassing specifically in the context of the Final Solution and European Jewry, not for targeted minorities writ large. So, this solitary mention of Roma people only refers to incarceration, not mass murder; I grant that the murder of Soviet POWs was discussed in the context of Zyklon-B experiments. So, yes, I think that some larger mention is warranted. I'd propose the following, in the penultimate paragraph of the Definition section (new text in bold):

"Murders were not limited to these camps. Sites for the “Holocaust by Bullets” are marked on the map of The Holocaust in Occupied Poland by white skulls (without the black background), where people were lined up next to a ravine and shot by soldiers with rifles. Sites included Bronna Góra, Ponary and others." Likewise, mass murder within the extermination camps was not confined solely to Jewish deportees. While the overwhelming majority of victims were Jews, tens of thousands of Romani were murdered, as well, most notably at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Kulmhof. These killings were part of the Porajmos, the modern term for the Nazi program of genocide against the Romani people.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sacxpert (talk • contribs)

Death amount wrong

It says that only 2.7 million people died in the Holocaust, while it's supposed to be 6 million 2A02:A44C:3B83:1:87F:5DD5:2C5E:E2C3 (talk) 13:32, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Not all Holocaust victims died at the extermination camps. FDW777 (talk) 13:44, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Romania and Croatia?

All these camps are Nazi. But the Nazis weren't the only ones who set up death camps. I have a reliable source that states Romania and Croatia ran their own death camps. For Croatia, see Jasenovac concentration camp. For Romania, see Bogdanovka. I think both countries and these two camps - foremost in either case - should be mentioned. Although I guess one can split hairs about Bogdanovka and say it was technically a "concentration camp". But, given that A) the source above states that Romania and Croatia ran death camps, and B) the inmates of Bogdanovka were killed in the end, I figure it worths mentioning in the article. Transylvania1916 (talk) 19:40, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

You want to read this source from the USHMM and this source from the USHMM which explains the terminology. Also useful USHMM on Romania and USHMM on Jasenovac. Note the absence of gassing facilities (whether stationary or mobile) at Jasenovac. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:53, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Sooo, only Pechora and Vapniarka were camps? Just gave a quick glance, I'm not quite sure what sets apart - in the Romanian case at least - a camp from a ghetto. At any rate, the Bogdanovka article quite explicitly lists it as a "concentration camp", so is the article wrong? Transylvania1916 (talk) 20:01, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I also found this large book published by Cengage which lists Jasenovak, Vapniarka, Bogdanovka and Pechora as "extermination camps". On a comprehenisve, Europe-wide map, that distinguishes between concentration camps, extermination camps and ghettos. Transylvania1916 (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

that's a textbook which is not the best sort of source for this sort of information. You should be relying on subject matter experts (i.e. the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, the innumerable scholars that study this and contribute to the academic literature. A general survey history textbook is not an authoritative source for what is or is not an extermination camp. Ealdgyth (talk) 21:04, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

But more reliable sources on Google Books also have varying groupings of Romanian concentration camps... I don't get it: only Vapniarka and Pechora were camps? And only because USHMM says so? Then why is Bogdanovka a concentration/extermination camp in multiple Google Books sources, and in its article? Shouldn't this be changed then? Transylvania1916 (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be under the misapprehension that because something is in Google Books that its a good source. Google Books is not an indicator of quality in sources. You should be reading the scholars who study the subject, not searching for phrases on Google Books. Start with good academic overviews of the subject of the Holocaust. Study the bibliographies of those academic books to discover who the scholars are and who is worth citing. Several good places to start to look for good quality sources are works such as The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust or The Oxford Handbook of Holocaust Studies. But those are just the starting point for the reading. See what they recommend, and read read read read read. Ealdgyth (talk) 21:28, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Central Europe or Poland?

In the first chapter instead of "central Europe" should be: "occupied Poland", because all six of camps have been located within the borders of prewar Poland. 178.36.114.58 (talk) 14:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

What about Maly Trostenets?

Under the heading "Definition," the article says that there were six death camps - Auschwitz, Chełmno, Bełżec, Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka. But the map in the same section also lists Maly Trostenets as a death camp, and the article for Maly Trostenets states likewise. 184.100.75.8 (talk) 02:39, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Taking Hoss at his Word

I have made edits to the "Gassing" section where the Sonderkommando's deceptive behavior towards the Jews who were about to be gassed is told by Hoss. We then allow Hoss to talk about how conflicted Nazi officers were upon seeing his work. I hope it's obvious what kind of biases he has and that he is not a reliable source on these matters and we don't need to let him brag on the pages of our encyclopedia. Of the thousands of enslaved Sonderkommandos fewer than 20 survived. So whatever voice they have should be carefully preserved and not replaced with their murderers' voice. It's likely that some version of what Hoff is describing is true, but we need better sources if we want to paint the shower ruse deception in such fine detail. Cheers. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Typo in Introduction: "...directly on side."

"Millions were also murdered in concentration camps, in the Aktion T4 or murdered directly on side..." Surely this should be "...on site"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.93.75.130 (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks I fixed it. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Missing comma

The third paragraph in the "Extermination procedure" section has a sentence missing a comma. It should read, "At Auschwitz, clothes . . ."

Thanks. MickRide808 (talk) 13:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)