Talk:Extremaduran language

Historical Use

In the Dialects section of the article there is a sentence that reads, The central and southern ones are spoken in the rest of Extremadura, and are all of them at least since the 18th century Castilian dialects. This was clearly written by someone who isn't a native of English. I can't tell what the second part of the sentence is trying to convey. maybe... "...and all of them have been (spoken) since (something about) the 18 century Castillian dialects." Anyone care to give a shot?? cullen (talk) 22:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I've tried to improve the sentence. --Jotamar (talk) 13:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

newbie alert, article empty save one disjoint sentence.

Extremadura is a province in Spain, but there is no article on it. Ortolan88 10:03 Jul 27, 2002 (PDT)

200.000 "extremaduran" speakers???? You must be kidding... At least they did not know that. Obviously there are not 200.000 people in the world that know what "extremaduran" means. Probably "extremaduran" language exists as a dialecto or a language or wathever a filologic maniac wants. But verything in this article is a joke. Even to discuss it. --Pablomfa (talk) 10:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

dialect?

I am from Sierra de Gata (North zone of Caceres) and it is a language recognised by the UNESCO. In these terms, english is a germanic dialect.... CiD

I live here and i can tell you that this isnt a language it is a dialect of spanish. It has equal systems of pronouns ,nouns and verbs and the offical lanuage is spanish.

Extemaduran is meridonal dialect of spanish . If you don't mind I'm gonna changed

Should this page not be moved to Extremaduran dialect? Does anybody assert Extremaduran to be a language in its own right, as opposed to a dialect of the Astur-Leonese language? And is there any linguistic or social support for such an assertion, if it exists? QuartierLatin1968 16:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it too.

Not is a language ¡¡

It's not a language, in fact, it's considered an spanish dialect with some asturleonese influence.Jesusito 09:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm agree with Jesusito. In my opinion, Extremaduran is not a language. It's a Spanish Dialect.

I've just moved it to Extremaduran dialect!--PayoMalayo 22:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the move to Extremaduran_dialect should be immediately reverted. Please take a look at discussion pages in articles of Template:Romance_languages or any other language family or subfamily and you will see that naming and defining many regional and minority languages (or dialects) are always controversial. In Germany, for example, some languages are considered dialects; even Dutch is considered in some well-known dialect books to be a Low German Dialect. And I think this problem is also frequent in France and Italy. The English Wikipedia should follow independent and neutral sources (WP:NPOV), and the Ethnologue is a good approach to it, although obviously not the only one. Editors should preferably work in editing the article information to obtain a neutral point of view, keeping in mind that moves like this one are not a way to "complain or remove material that is personally disliked, whose perspective is against one's beliefs, or which is not yet presented neutrally" (following WP:deletion policy). I think that the nearer you have the information, so to say, the less neutral you become. If you are Spanish, even Extremaduran, and want to clearly distinguish Extremaduran Language from -say- Asturian or standard Spanish, because they are not at the same social level, do it in the Spanish or Asturian Wikipedia; there you will certainly find supporters. And if you still want to change the information on the English Wikipedia, please, at least cite some source so that we don't enter in stupid edit wars. -- Max°^Talk 13:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't understand your point of view. You only moved the name back because you think I did a non-WP:NPOV action; and you defend your editions saying that your view is the neutral view. Can you explain, please, the sources which you based on your changes? Otherwise, your position is also a non-NPOV.--PayoMalayo 17:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading the web Ethnologue, I can just say that the information this page shows about Extremaduran is really poor: this page doesn't distinguish high, middle or low extremaduran; this is very important because high extremaduran is said to be a astur-leones dialect, and middle and low extremadura a castillian dialect; they didn't know good statistics about the speakers; regrettably, speakers are going down. I admit that borders between a dialect and a language are sometimes narrow, but aren't based on number of speakers! For example, have you read Dialect#"Dialect" or "language"? Extremaduran keeps all the points to be dialect. Usually the term "dialect" is seen as a lower category (than language), so maybe that is the reason of all those discussions in other articles you told. But, what has really surprised me are some ideas you listed: if you think that people or a web page is going to know something better than me simply because they are further than me from the "thing", or if Wikipedia is going to be built now based only on a christian web page, what kind of encyclopedia do you want? Should one think that, because my editions doesn't compliant a poor (for Extremaduran) web page, I have a non-NPOV??? Oh my goddddd!! The only and lonely here are SOURCES! so, you're totally right in that point, we need sources! so, is your source the poor (for Extremaduran dialect) christian web page? Ok, I'll search something about it, because that's the only reason for a good article or a reasonable change, not the other reason you listed.--PayoMalayo 03:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Why the articles name is "Extremaduran (linguistics)" and not "Extremaduran language" when the same article says it´s a romance language? I think the name is wrong... Better geta 18:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether Extremaduran language or Extremaduran dialect is a better name, but either would be better than Extremaduran (linguistics). I'm going to move the title. But if you think another title would be better, lets discuss that. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 21:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree Better geta 10:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It is a language

I am from Extremadura and I have been living there since I was born, but Spanish is my mother tongue and I do not speak Extremaduran at all. When I travel to an extremaduran-speaking area (mostly in North-East Extremadura), I can hear many people speaking extremaduran and it is extremely difficult for me to understand what they say just because I do not speak the language so that I ask them to speak spanish when talking to me for me to understand them. I just understand some isolated words because Spanish and Extremaduran languages are very similar and they are mutually understandable in some way, as any other romance languages can be mutually understandable.

It is definitely a language and it is not a dialect of the Spanish language, in fact, the Extremaduran language is more similar to the Astur-Leonese language than to the Spanish language. If Extremaduran was a dialect, it would be a dialect of the Astur-Leonese language.

That is why I think the title must not be changed because this ('Extremaduran language') is the right one.

Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.252.88 (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it was a lenguage or if was not. But what is clear is that it was. Probably you filologist could find pecualiarities in the speaking of an old man in a little hamlet in Extremadura. But a preliminary spanish teacher woul find even more of them. What is culture and what is lack of it, who knows. What I can said is if you go to any single place of Extremadura, speaking in the fashion of what spanish wikipedia calls "extremaduran" they will probably think that you come from Mars.--Pablomfa (talk) 13:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Are the people talking in this video from Mars?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seh1Dz2uLnE

Let's write their words as they come out of their mouth:

"-Habla... Habla en serraillanu, pol favol. -¿Ehn? -Pol favol -¿Se... Serraillanu puru duru? -Puru y duru.

...

-Vamus a jadel una dutaera. -Esu lo sabráh tú lo que eh... -Una dutaera que silbi... Estu machacamuh el platijirri ehti, bien machacáu, y luegu ponemuh unus bujerus con un ajinu. Y dihpuéh tiramus y aflojamuh.

...

-Idilmi unah palabrah en serraillanu, que naidi habla serraillanu aquí. -Tú ehtáh viviendu muchu tiempu ahí ajuera ¿no? Ajuera. -Sí, me falta la entonación, me faltan muchah cosah, lo intentu... -Pero ¿Te sobra algu, te sobra? -No me sobra na.

...

-...hablal, y diju "¡Ay, qué calol jadi!". Y se quearun los señoritus idiendu "¿Cómu ha dichu?¿Jaci?¿Jadi?¿Jadi?" Mejol no andin uhtedih, uhtéh, que no son capáh d'idillu comu yo. -Correhtu.

...

-¿Y qué quierih sabel, que ehti chalecu de cuándu eh? -¿De cuándu eh esi chalecu? -Eh de jadi muchu ha. -Muchu ha, peru muchu muchu, ¿no? -Pertene... Era de mi... De loh mih bisagüeluh. -Pueh na, que lo dihfrutih. -Eran ganaeruh, ¿Sabih? -Ajá. -Loh... Loh botonih son charruh. -Botonih charruh, ahí lo podéih comprobal. -Iban a Salamanca a por elluh loh grandih propietariuh que tenían, y lo invertían en ehtah cosah. -Mu bien.

...

-¿Qué jadih así vehtíu? -Porque hoy eh el día apropiáu pa ellu. -Me paici mu bien, ala, jarreandu. -Tú erih el nietu del tíu Matéu ¿no? -Sí, yo soy el nietu del tíu Matéu Cahtellanu. -Matéu Cahtellanu, efehtivamenti. -Que en pah dehcansi. -Hiju de Inehtu. -Esahtu. Inehtu yo mihmu. -Inehtu tú mihmu."

This is Extremaduran as it is described in the Spanish Wikipedia, as it's spoken by some people in Serradilla, Garrovillas or Villamiel. Do you think this is Martian language? Do you think saying "jadel" instead of "hacer" and "idil" instead of "decir" is Martian language? Do you think it's Spanish?

We are not the only ones who call it Extremaduran. So does UNESCO, and so do many of its speakers. And now it has its own Wikipedia:

http://ext.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1hina_prencipal

--Ringurrangu (talk) 12:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this article has many unnecesaries citation neededs. --El estremeñu (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Provide sources then, per WP:Verifiability. --LjL (talk) 13:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

The middle and low extremaduran are considered as dialects of Spanish.

Example: caeza (low Extremaduran or castúo), the castúo is a dialect very deformative,

cabeça (high extremaduran, the ç used according the ismael carmona's ortography, pronuncied as th, of think), --O extremenho (talk) 21:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

---

Extremaduran (línguistics) → Extremaduran — or to "Extremaduran language", I'm relatively neutral as to which (on one hand, most language articles are called "X language", on the other, there isn't an article about the Extremaduran people and its creation is unlikely), but certainly the current title is not acceptable, and neither would be the version without accented "í". LjL (talk) 11:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Probably simple Extremaduran; most of the uses of language are to disambigate, and I suspect this article is more one-sided on whether this is a language than a full range of sources would be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: perhaps it helps to point out that neither move can take place without administrator intervention, because the article was previously moved from "Extremaduran language" to "Extremaduran" before subsequently being moved to where it is now. --LjL (talk) 15:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
  • They could be undone (by moving back in reverse order) if a bot had not over-wrtten Extremaduran to get rid of the double redirect; but it has. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The most appropriate title for this article is Extremaduran (linguistics), because the actual title can refer to a person from Extremadura, or can be confused. --Der Künstler (talk) 15:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

typo in table?

I am not an Extremaduran speaker, but the line in the table:
nostrum nostro notre nuestro nosso muestru ours
jumps out at me. Should 'muestru' be 'nuestru' (this would be the Extremaduran column)

William J. 'Bill' McCalpin (talk) 02:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but I think muestru is right. --Jotamar (talk) 03:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In any villages, uses muestru and in other nuestru, but I believe that is most used nuestru. --Der Künstler (talk) 23:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

hahaha! Well, now, I don't know if "muestru" was a mistake (an understandable typographical error), or the usage in one village versus another ;-) Is there any "authoritative" reference for Extremaduran?

William J. 'Bill' McCalpin (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Is not a typographical error, Ismael Carmona García, who is a native speaker of Extremaduran uses in his blog muestru [1]. But in this blog is used nuestru. Then, I will add nuestru. --Der Künstler (talk) 16:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Muestru" is right. It's just a very common analogy. Some people in villages say "mos" instead of "nos" (mos alegramus), mosotrus or mujotrus instead of Castilian "nosotros" and, accordingly, "muestru" instead of "nuestro". Those are analogies with the endings of the 1st person plural (cantaMus, comeMus, saliMos). Now it's heard less often (although it's sometimes used all over Extremadura), but in my town we even have a joke about using "mos" instead of "nos" as a pronoun. People from San Vicente de Alcántara calls people from Alburquerque "pelinos", and we people from Alburquerque call those from San Vicente de Alcántara mojasas. People has found a funny popular etymology for those words and they usually say that after a soccer match between "pelinos" and "mojasas", the "mojasa" team won and they started shouting out "¡MOS ha salío bien!" ("we've done very well", pronouncing the final s in "mos" with an aspiration, so it would be "MOJ HA SAlío bien") and the team from Alburquerque said "Issh, por un PELINO no hemos ganao" (shit, we nearly won but we couldn't).--Ringurrangu (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

hahaha. This is funny, because the language is coming full circle. After all, the "-mus" in "cantamus" comes from the personal pronoun "nos" anyway, since Latin verbs were originally built from a combination of the verb stem ("cant-" in this case, because the Latin is the same as the Extremaduran), a form of the verb "to be" ("a" in this case, very abbreviated - it's more obvious in other tenses), and the personal pronoun ("nos" in this case for "we"), so cant-a-mus. And I guess, although I don't know for sure, that the reason that "nos" became "-mus" in the verb form is related to "me" as the first person singular form ("nos" is first person plural). I suppose that in very old Latin that there may have been "me" (I) and "mes" or "mos" (we) since the normal way to build the plural (in the accusative case) was to add an "-s"...

William J. 'Bill' McCalpin (talk) 01:15, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, in some varieties of Catalan, the pronoun nos is pronounced [mos]. --Jotamar (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: Bill's explanation is completely speculative and does not fit with the facts, nor the usual reconstruction. Compare Proto-Indo-European verbs: Latin cantāre, a frequentative form, is formally a denominal (type 6c or 6b) derivation (with the PIE suffix *-eh₂-ye-/-yo-) from the past participle cantus (PIE *kan-to-s) of the older verb canere (PIE *kan-e-/-o-), as if *kan-t-eh₂-ye-/-yo-, and the ending -mus simply goes back to PIE *-mos (the thematic vowel used with this ending is *-o-; Latin cantāmus goes back to a quasi-PIE *kan-t-eh₂-yo-mos > *kantah₂yomos > Pre-Proto-Italic *kantāyomos with Proto-Italic loss of *-y- between vowels and later swallowing up of the thematic vowel by the long vowel), whose relationship to the PIE pronoun is unclear. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:16, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Also note that the m-variant muestro, as well as the variant mos for nos (see here), is found in Ladino as well. My suspicion is that [nw] was simply assimilated to [mw] in Ibero-Romance, and that the m has spread to nos and this form in turn to some Catalan dialects (guess what, it is listed in Wiktionary too). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

See also p. 16. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:44, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

An smear campaign - Hope this doesn't get deleted by the dynamip IP outrager is commenting here

I can confirm this article and the whole idea of an "Extremaduran" language is just a joke to ridiculize all the people from the autonomous community of Extremadura. The person who created this was part of an small portion of haters in Spain who are always blaming national problems on certain communities like Extremadura, Andalucia etc and they do all they can to ridiculize them. I live here and have no constancy whatsoever that such language exists, nor official ones in Spain that recognices them either. There are other attemps on the net to extend this in form of translations of software, that you're going to tell me how those supposed speakers are going to download since those isolated towns between mountains in Extremadura have no way to connect to the internet and only an anecdotal percent of them owns a computer (Yes I've been in that zone). People from those towns like Descargamaria DO certainly speak in a different way than the rest of the community, but that's all about it: they have a broad accent. Even the older ones (80+) that are just a couple of hundreds and who have always lived isolated never get to speak like 50% of described in the article. It has been exaggerated to an anormous extent and like I say it's in no way recognized as a language by anybody, not even the ones who speak (a bit) like this. These haters tend to imitate that accent when refering to people from Extremadura just to ridiculize them, I never imagined one of them would even invent this whole accent thing and try to post it to Wikipedia.org Hope it gets deleted soon. Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.155.92.249 (talk) 07:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You 'can't' confirm what you're claiming if you haven't any proof or evidence. Obviously this article hasn't been created just by a single person who is part of that 'small portion of haters', but by many people interested in Extremaduran (if you look in the history of this article you'll find there are several people who have contributed). Extremaduran has got a SIL code (that's a fact you can't deny, that's a 'proof' and that's something you lack), and not because any of those "haters" had asked for it. Nobody in Extremadura even asked for it. Of course there are very few speakers of Extremaduran and those live in the north in isolated villages, that's not different from what the article says, but there are some people interested in that language, and some young neospeakers. And those are all Extremadurans. Aren't Pablo Gonzálvez, Juan José Camisón, Ismael Carmona or any of those writers who employ Extremaduran Extremadurans themselves or are they a part of those so-called haters? The article also says that the language is dying out and being absorbed into Spanish, what you say about itis not different from what the article claims. Here you have some examples of speakers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seh1Dz2uLnE

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/7/19/2514914/Garro.mp3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flbSjwEBZKc

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/7/19/2514914/Serragatinaa.mp3

It's like 100% of what's described in the article (if you have bothered to read the article). Of course it's difficult to find good speakers, but it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Of course some people would say that those people just have a "broad accent". If one gets fresh one can also say that about Asturian or |Aragonese...

Is SIL part of those haters? Is the Red Book of Endangered Languages by UNESCO (who mentions Extremaduran as part of Astur-Leonese and therefore as being a different language from Spanish) part of those haters? Is UNESCO part of those haters?

As you can see, the article is right when it says that many Extremadurans aren't even aware of the existence of the language itself...

I don't know why anybody would want to delete your comment. It just speaks for itself... --Ringurrangu (talk) 12:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

NOT RELIABLE ARTICLE

Hi, I've found this article by sheer chance, as far as I know and from my experience, the people of Extremadura talk a Spanish dialect that is called Castúo (usually speaked by people that only needs to be understood in their region, I do not speak Castuo but have a very strong accent so I understand it clearly people that speak it because is the same that I speak but with a stronger accent, but, finally is Spanish language.In fact the grammatical rules are exactly the same only differs on pronunciation. Maybe, it can be an archaic version of Spanish (it has a lot of similarities with the Spanish of the Quijote that is from the XVII century. For instance: de use of "de que", called currently "dequeismo", instead of "cuando" but that appears also in the Quijote as it) in fact, the writting in Castuo is exactly the same than in Spanish but modified to simulate the pronunciation.And talking about the castuo dialect there is already a more technical article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast%C3%BAo, so this article seems to be duplicated, and with a lot of imprecissions). For more references about castuo you can find works in in Castúo of Mr. Luis Chamizo (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Chamizo_Trigueros) that is the most important writer (simulating the pronunciantion with the Spanish writting rules) in this dialect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.102.198.19 (talk) 10:48, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

To finish, the way of write the Extrematurian language that is used above on the comment of: Ringurrangu (talk) 12:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC) is a modality that I only have seen until 2010 and that use the apostrophe as the way to cut the words to simulate the Castuo. That is the English way to do that (very common on H.G. Wells works), and is really a new written way for the castuo. Maybe is simpler to consider that the castuo is written like Luis Chamizo did. In that way nobody has to know english style to write Castuo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.102.198.19 (talk)

After look with more detail the article, probaly this article is a fake, according to the post on the table of the pronunciation:"Extremaduran words in this table are spelled according to Ismael Carmona García's orthography", this ortography is not a common reference in any place it seems more the invention of a young writer: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismael_Carmona_Garc%C3%ADa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.102.198.19 (talk) 11:19, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The article claims that about 200,000 people speak Extremaduran. That's one-fifth of the population of Extremadura, and probably most of them are bilingual, so there is no conflict between your assertion that "the people of Extremadura talk a Spanish dialect" and the article's assertion that a distinct Extremaduran exists. Of course the difference between language and dialect is fuzzy anyway. —Tamfang (talk) 05:50, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

The article clearly states that Extremaduran is spoken only in a part of Extremadura, and that it is different from the Extremaduran dialects of Spanish (that are sometimes called Castúo). Jotamar (talk) 15:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Removed "Disputed" tag

I've removed the "Disputed" tag, which had been there for a few years. There's no active discussion here on the talk page, and the discussion above seems resolved. If someone wants to restore it then go ahead, but then please also re-open a discussion here with what specifically is being disputed. Thanks! -Helvetica (talk) 05:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)