Talk:Fairmount, Philadelphia

Art Museum Area

Real estate agents and tourists sometimes refer to it as the "Art Museum Area," for its proximity to and association with the Art Museum.

It's not just real estate agents and tourists. I know people who live there who call it that. I'd imagine old timers still call it Fairmount, but "Art Museum" is pretty commonly used by residents and businesses in the area. "Bella Vista" and "Queen Village" are just as much names made up by real estate agents as "Art Museum," but we don't say those names are only used by real estate agents and tourists. john k (talk) 16:14, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

An advantage for realtors is that Art Museum Area comes well before Fairmount or Spring Garden in classified ads. --DThomsen8 (talk) 17:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

"Center City District" is not a geographical term

A recent edit, which greatly improved the article (in my opinion), also introduced a questionable (again IMO) description of Fairmount's location to the lead sentence. The article formerly said that Fairmount is in North Philadelphia. Now it says that it's in the "Greater Center City District".

The Center City District is a special-services organization. Although the organization serves a specific region, "Center City District" (unlike "Center City") isn't a geographical description.

Fairmount is north of Spring Garden Street, and is therefore in North Philadelphia. It isn't a bad thing; it's just a fact, which the article should include. TypoBoy (talk) 14:55, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Happy to hear your feedback. One of the reasons's I cited my source for the "Greater Center City" was because I felt someone may question it's use.

However, I strongly feel this is a more accurate description then North Philadelphia.

Several years ago, the City of Philadelphia expanded their definition of Center City to include the northern area up to Girard Ave and an additional area south was also included.

The government has defined this expansion as the "Greater Center City" and it is included in the City's own report. In addition, there was an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer some years ago discussing this inclusion. When the city publishes growth statistics about Center City, they include the northern area up to Girard Ave and therefore it has become a geographical description.

I would further challenge that North Philadelphia is an accurate geographical description as the city breaks up this areas as Lower North and Upper North. Rvenne01 (talk) 15:59, 22 January 2016

@RVenne01 and TypoBoy: How official is this designation? Is the Center City District & Central Philadelphia Development Corporation actually an arm of the government of the City of Philadelphia? From the name, it could just as easily (or more so) be a consortium of business owners and/or neighborhood organizations, with some government acknowledgment and interaction but no official status or authority.

That's one question. Another is, outside of this organization, do Philadelphians ever speak of "the Greater Center City District" or "Greater Center City"? I've never heard of it. Similarly for "Upper / Lower North Philadelphia".

In this connection I commend to you WP: TITLE, from which I take the following quotations and examples. While the description under discussion here is not being used as an article title, the same logic applies.

• Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the criteria listed above.
• Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.
• the ideal article title resembles titles for similar articles, precisely identifies the subject, and is short, natural, distinguishable and recognizable.
• Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred.
• Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. (IMO, "pedantic" is a fair description of "Greater Center City District".)
• Halifax, Nova Scotia (not: Halifax Regional Municipality)

All of this supports the mention of this bit of officialese, if at all, only as a governmental designation for the specific purpose of promoting development.

Lastly, I recommend that you get in the habit of indenting (each paragraph of) your talk page comments with colons, to one more level than the comment you are replying to. I've used two colons here, leaving you room to go back and use one colon.

To discuss this with me, please {{ ping}} me. --Thnidu (talk) 06:32, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

This article is about the neighborhood of Fairmount. The city does not have official designations for neighborhoods. There are conflicting and overlapping boundaries and, in many cases, multiple names for any given area. Additionally, there are similarly unofficial "sections" of the city. Yes, there are governmental/quasi-governmental/non-governmental organizations with names that connect them to various areas they serve: special services districts, school catchments, community development corporations, civic associations, business improvement districts, etc.

The various organizations do not select their names in a vacuum. Over time, "the Slums" becomes "Society Hill" and realtors begin to call "the Gayborhood" "Midtown Village"; "Old Kensington" becomes "North of Northern Liberties" and a chunk of "Point Breeze" is renamed "Newbold". Names from adjoining areas that are seen as "better" areas are stretched: houses in Greys Ferry are sold as Graduate Hospital, a business in Germantown is "Chestnut Hill Computer Repair". Various populations associate the same locations with different neighborhoods, based on their feelings about various names. A business improvement district/CDC/service area may be formed which overlaps two neighborhoods or includes only part of its namesake neighborhood and its boundaries may later be changed.

As a general rule, "North Philadelphia" has pretty strong associations things some neighborhoods would like to distance themselves from: crime, poverty, urban decay, etc. As a result, new names are coined and boundaries of other areas are stretched.

Long story short: We'll need to stick to what reliable sources say, avoid synthesis and keep things as factual as possible. If the (fictional) Greenhood Civic Association says their service area is between certain boundaries, we should not assume that those are the boundaries of "Greenhood", but should simply say it is the Civic Association's service area. If one source says "North Philadelphia" is within certain boundaries and all or part of another source's boundaries for a neighborhood fall within the first source's "North Philadelphia", we can't combine the two to place that neighborhood in "North Philadelphia".

Yes, we will find cases of special pleading: "everything west of the river is in Southwest Philly" or "north of Passyunk and west of Broad is not part of South Philly". Whatever. We need to objectively report what the strongest sources say. South Philly Review might be good enough for boundaries of "Marconi Plaza", but the Philadelphia Inquirer would be better. To put Fairmount in "North Philadelphia", we'll need Penn, the city and the Inquirer to say it. No one paid "Fairmount" prices to have people say they live in "North Philadelphia". - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:20, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Currently, we are citing this report from the Center City District & Central Philadelphia Development Corporation .comto state that Fairmount is "a neighborhood within the Greater Center City District". The "Center City District", as defined by the report is from Girard and Tasker, river to river. (While I'd love to get folks from Front and Tasker in a room with people from 30th and Girard in one room and tell them they both live in the "Center City District", that's a bit off topic.) Yes, the boundaries later given from Fairmount do fall in this large area. Two problems: 1) "Center City District" is not a meaningful term to anyone reading this article. "Center City" is widely used, but does not encompass much of this area. 2) the report does not say anything about Fairmount. The source is off-topic and our use is WP:SYN. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:56, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Next up is Curbed.com which states "Ask five different Philadelphians what and where Fairmount or the "Art Museum Area" neighborhood is and you'll get five different answers." it then states "Most amateur geographers tend to agree" on what we state "Its boundaries are". Curbed is a blog. Wikipedia frowns on blogs as sources. Further, we are overselling their weak claim: We state the boundaries are, it says these are the lines most amateur geographers tend to agree on. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Google maps does indeed plunk down red lines for Fairmount that match those we give. I have no idea where it gets neighborhood boundaries from, but it's sidebar quotes this Wikipedia article. Unless someone has some strong indication otherwise, I really can't see any justification for it as a reliable source. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Our next cite is about.com. I've gotten differing reads on their reliability, but the source gives two different sets of boundaries, both of which conflict with the ones we give. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

All of that leaves us with no firm answers. I think we need some solid sources for this. Let's see what we can find. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

The Center City District is an interesting entity. I think it deserves its own article. My understanding is that it's a "special services district" created by law but not part of the government, that provides services within a precisely-defined area and is funded by the businesses within that area, which are legally required to support it.

The City of Philadelphia does indeed not define neighborhoods legally. The City web site does have this list of neighborhoods, naming boundaries: http://www.phila.gov/phils/docs/otherinfo/pname1.htm That doesn't help us here, since they don't define "North Philadelphia".

I understand that there is a stigma associated with North Philadelphia. I think we can spare the pride of people from Fairmount, and still tell the truth, by making the geographical description in the lead something like:

Fairmount is in the southernmost part of North Philadelphia, adjacent to Center CIty. The Center City District considers Fairmount part of "Greater Center City". TypoBoy (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Please note the "Philadelphia Neighborhoods and Place Names" from the Department of Records is fascinating, but problematic. I included it below, but the website makes clear it's from a wide variety of sources of varying quality. "Many neighborhood names turned up without dates of origin in textual sources; we chose to include them as well." From the intro, it sounds like the city took an existing report of nearly 400 neighborhood names and add a half dozen more. (I'm not entirely sure how to cite that.)

Most of the academic sources I listed are from the late 1970s through the 1980s and focus on the area's gentrification and red-lining that cropped up in the wake of the loss of manufacturing in the 1960s. As a result, I wouldn't have been surprised to find some changes to the boundaries since then. However, they seem to have been pretty stable. I haven't yet dug in enough to find what the area was called prior to the 1960s. - SummerPhD^v2.0 23:34, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for all this detailed research, SummerPhDv2.0. This should help improve the article considerably, and maybe even make it a model for neighborhood articles.--Thnidu (talk) 00:08, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you SummerPhDv2.0, TypoBoy and Thnidu for contributing such a rich conversation. I agree that the conversation can only serve to enhance the article.

I still argue Greater Center City is a term fostered by the City of Philadelphia and I refer you to the State of Center City reports, which is published regularly on the City of Philadelphia's website. The reports establish the area of Greater Center City and the city distributes, references and endorses this defined area when they publicize and promote the city's growth statistics. If the city's own endorsement were not enough, this Philadelphia Inquirer article also perpetuates the term and boundaries.

SummerPhDv2.0 hit the nail on the head when he said that the city does not have official designations for neighborhoods. Philadelphia is officially dividend into 66 wards, so technically the Fairmount and North Philadelphia Wikipedia articles, among others, should not even exist. I hope we will all agree that creating ward district pages is not practical, nor is it how the majority of Philadelphia's citizens define where they live within the city.

All of the neighborhood boundaries are continuously in flux and each neighborhood could claim some overlap with their neighbor. It's simply not possible to have a correct answer unless the city were to officially define neighborhoods. I felt this inevitable boundary controversy should be acknowledged in the article and that is why I wrote the second sentence.

Apologies for long-winded way of saying that I understand the argument and controversy around the defined boundaries of Fairmount. I believe the boundaries are defined as best as it can be, but I'm always open to listen to an opposing argument. However, I do feel strongly that the use of Greater Center City in the article is accurate and justifiable. The city circulates reports and statistics for this area. What official or superior source can someone provide that even defines North Philadelphia?

--Rvenne01 (talk) 03:53, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

To be clear: I am not saying the city does not use the terms "Center City District", "Greater Center City District" and others. I am saying that usage is far from widespread outside of official channels, demographers, etc. Similarly, we do not start Philadelphia by saying "Philadelphia is a city within the Megalopolis of the United States." Certainly there are people who would know exactly what that means, but those people are a fairly narrow group who are quite familiar with Philadelphia. Similarly, there are those who are familiar with the term "Greater Center City (Philadelphia)", but they are quite familiar with Fairmount. The introductory paragraph of the article should serve to help those who are unfamiliar with Fairmount to come up with a few basic ideas: it's a Philly neighborhood, near (but not in) the city's core. That's issue one. Philadelphia is indisputably part of Megalopolis and Fairmount is certainly part of the "District" in the sources cited. The terms, however, are not meaningfully descriptive, official designation or not. ("Sciuromorpha Sciurdae Marmotini Cynomys" is official, accurate and descriptive, but "herbivorous burrowing rodents native to the grasslands of North America" is more informative to the average reader.)

The second issue is, again, inserting a neighborhood into a larger section. Much as we shouldn't add Fairmount to "North Philadelphia" without sourcing to support both that it is "true", but also to support that it is meaningful (i.e., that saying so conveys more info than it misleads). I have yet to see a source, much less a widely used one discussing Fairmount as part of "Greater Center City".

Side note: The city does not define neighborhoods. True enough, but that does not mean this article should not exist. Reliable sources discuss the neighborhood sufficiently to demonstrate notability. Yes, the boundaries are vague and differ from source to source. We still have (as we should) articles for hill vs. mountain, lake vs. pond, etc. Similarly, the definition of a "mountain" (apart from a hill) is likely to vary from source to source: USGS, OED, etc.

From where I sit, the description mostly used for Fairmount (both in the cited sources and the local vernacular) is that it is a neighborhood in the Art Museum area. Certainly, this needs to be clarified and PMOA is in one corner of the neighborhood, not its center. (This, again, is where we need to avoid the temptation to synthesize: "The area around Eastern State Penitentiary in North Philadelphia" is not a good cornerstone for this article.)

So far, I see "Fairmount is a neighborhood in the Art Museum area of the city of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania." I'm tempted to make that "residential neighborhood", but that ignores large sections included in some of the sources' boundaries (Boathouse Row park land, PMOA, Girard College, etc.). - SummerPhD^v2.0 19:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

SummerPhDv2.0 Thanks for your input. I'm always up for a conversation, but I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree at this point. In my opinion, just because the term Greater Center City is not widely used outside of official channels, it doesn't mean it's inaccurate. Those who are unfamiliar with the term Greater Center City, I encourage them to examine the article's references. The whole point of Wikipedia is to learn more and one can easily research the term Greater Center City--that's precisely why a source is listed. It is meaningfully descriptive: an area between Girard and Tasker Ave. Since almost everyone can agree that the area the local vernacular has defined as "Fairmount" is within this officially recognized area of Greater Center City, it does have a defining purpose.

A megalopolis, as defined by it's greek origin, is a type of megacity (commonly with 10 million plus people). Therefore the statement "Philadelphia is a Megalopolis within the United States" is correct and descriptive. Likewise, "Pennsylvania is a State within the United States" and "Fairmount is a neighborhood within the Greater Center City District of Philadelphia" are both accurate and descriptive statements which bring additional clarity.

I personally believe the logic to your second point to be flawed and here is the source of our disagreement. On one hand you argue Fairmount exists and it shouldn't be placed into the Greater Center City term. On the other hand, you recognize that city does not define or recognize neighborhoods and therefore Fairmount does not exist according to the city. You then make a point that there aren't enough sources to justify Greater Center City and the term isn't meaningfully descriptive enough.

My argument is that according to the city, Greater Center City is an officially defined area where Fairmount is a non-officially defined area. Using this as my base, I find it hard to contest the Greater Center City term when it has clearly defined boundaries of Girard - Tasker and has the best source possible: annual publications by the City of Philadelphia as well as circulated newspapers. Since the Fairmount boundaries are open to interpretation and the Greater Center City boundaries are not, the term provides at least some measure of clarity. If nothing else, Fairmount is within the Greater Center City District.

Greater Center City is an official term and there are cited sources. Should you find adequate sources to contradict this, I encourage you to share them. Otherwise we can argue until we're both blue in the face, but it will serve little purpose.

Respectfully --Rvenne01 (talk)

I support the decision to say that Fairmount is located in "Greater Center City" (though I do it out of deference to other editor(s), rather than from any enthusiasm for the term, which hasn't been around long, is not the most common description of Fairmount's location, and appears to be used as a somewhat arbitrary abstraction about which statistics can be gathered, rather than as the name of a discrete community.)

On the other hand, I oppose the elision of the statement that Fairmount is in North Philadelphia. This change makes the Fairmount article inconsistent not only with the North Philadelphia article, but also with the "Municipalities and communities of Philadelphia in Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania, United States", which the Fairmount article itself includes.

Further, I object strongly to the introduction, on this page, of the term "Greater Center CIty District". None of the cited sources use it, and it doesn't make any sense. The Center City District is an organization, not a place. Fairmount can no more be in the Center City District than Manhattan can be located in the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority or Los Angeles can lie in the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

I propose the following lead paragraph:

Fairmount is a neighborhood in Philadelphia. Bounded by Spring Garden Street to the south, Broad Street to the east, Girard Avenue to the North and the Schuylkill River to the west, it is located in the southernmost part of North Philadelphia, in an area which has been called Greater Center City.

TypoBoy (talk) 19:26, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Cutting to the chase (again). We have sources that give boundaries for various areas that unquestionably include all (or most*) of Fairmount. These terms include, but are not limited to "Art Museum area", "Greater Center City" and "North Philadelphia". We do not have sources that discuss Fairmount as being part of "Greater Center City" or "North Philadelphia". If we say Fairmount is in either of these areas, we are (A) violating one of our core policies, WP:SYN (part of WP:NOR). Additionally, we are not being informative. Yes, there are people who would like to apply these terms to the area for various reasons but, by and large, most people do not say Fairmount in is North Philly and most people do not say "Greater Center City" at all. We do, however, have numerous reliable sources that say it is in the "Art Museum area". *Variations on the boundaries that I have found are the inclusion/exclusion of: the Museum, Boathouse Row section of the park, Girard College and the west side of Broad Street.)

As for the boundaries, we have differing opinions from reliable sources. We cannot say the boundaries "are" (whatever) any more than we can say "Chocolate is the yummiest ice cream flavor". Much like the boundaries of this area, there is no "correct" answer to what the yummiest ice cream flavor is. We have reliable sources giving boundaries and should certainly discuss them, but we cannot pick one, deem it "correct" and add it the the lead. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:23, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Possible sources

• Annals of the Association of American Geographers, 68.1, 1978. - gentrification, red-lining, likely gives boundaries.
• Journal of Urban Affairs, 8.4, 1986. - gentrification, likely gives boundaries.
• Environment and Planning A, 22.7, 1990. - gentrification, likely gives boundaries.
• City's Department of Records - report gives two slightly different sets of boundaries
• Fairmount CDC - boundaries given here - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:16, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

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