Talk:Fall of Saigon

(2005)

As I learned from what I read and information from my family members who fought in the war (I'm Vietnamese by the way), it looked a lot more like 'liberation' instead of 'fall', even though my family has been in the south for generations. Just an opinion

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I was just wondering if anyone knew how many people died in the 'Fall' or 'Liberation' of Saigon.

The Fall of Saigon does not seem to be a neutral term. Did the north not regard the "fall" as a liberation? SV|t|add 18:18, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia should definitely include mention of what the event is called by different parties in different languages. But whatever the term preferred by the north, it has not popularized it in English-speaking countries; the "Fall of Saigon" would seem to be the most common name in not just the U.S. but the UK (and The Independent is not known for its sympathy for U.S. military adventures), Australia, and New Zealand. "Saigon Giai Phong" meaning "Saigon Liberation" does appear to be a term used in Vietnam. -choster 05:02, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ordering of Belligerents in the infobox

This is corrently

Viet Cong and PRG Supported by: North Vietnam }vs

South Vietnam Supported by: United States

No mention of the unilateral abrogation of the Paris Peace Accords by the Democrat Congress

There is no mention of the carefully negotiated Paris Peace Accords that allowed the Americans to evacuate South Vietnam, while simultaneously supporting our Vietnamese allies for two years before the fall of Saigon.

Nor of the Democrat Congress unilaterally abrogating those Accords by voting to withhold the financial backing guaranteed in the Accords. So, the Congress (including Sen. Joe Biden, D-DE), on August 15, 1973, abrogated a treaty negotiated by the Executive Office, thereby pulling out the rug from under our South Vietnamese allies, who had fought and died with our soldiers and Marines for years.

Without the money to defend their country, while the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong were simultaneously fully supported by both China and the Soviet Union, the South did not have the financial wherewithal to withstand the communist invasion and eventually lost the ability to fight. After losing the South, the other "dominoes" of Laos and Cambodia fell within 3 months of Saigon, just as President Eisenhower had predicted. And making household names of such colorful new phrases as "re-education camps", "boat people", "killing fields", etc.

So, the Democrat Congress stabbed our brown-skinned allies in the back in 1975 in Indochina to our communist enemy, and our Democrat "President" Joe Biden did it today, August 31, 2021, with his precipitous and wholly unplanned unconditional surrender to a 7th Century tribal, Islamist gang in Afghanistan.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/31400 https://eagleinnyc.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/3-million-indochinese-were-massacred1.pdf

Sounds like a combination of the Vietnam stab-in-the-back myth and the arguments used by Nixon and Kissinger to obfuscate the "decent interval" strategy that most observers agree resulted in the Paris Peace Accords, but feel free to add content backed by unimpeachable reliable sources, if such sources exist.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:33, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

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Names section and capitalisation

Looking at the example of Ngày Giải Phóng (as capitalised in the article), a google news search here indicates various capitalisation of all of the words in this phrase. This then casts doubt on the capitalisation of the translation: "Liberation Day". The Vietnamese phrases appear to have been written in title case or as sentences even though they aren't sentences. Please contribute to resolving this. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I can't speak to how transliterated Vietamese should be capitalized, but not capitalizing translated common English words is consistent with MOS:CAPS. ~TPW 13:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I would guess it's like Memorial Day or Labor Day, a named holiday or such. Google Translate translates ngày giải phóng to Liberation Day, and Liberation Day to ngày giải phóng, so I assume those are the common capitalizations in their respective languages. I don't know anything about capitalization in Vietnamese, but it appears to be pretty optional. Dicklyon (talk) 02:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization of ngày giải phóng is all over the place in Vietnamese media [1], and it is clearly not conventionally rendered Ngày Giải Phóng (which seems to be the least common spelling). In English, the most conventional name for this is "Reunification Day", usually capitalized. "Liberation Day" is comparatively rare, but when I find it in news it is usually capitalized. The article over at Reunification Day gives three names for it all in the same style, but is using mixed case when it comes to the native-language names: Reunification Day (Vietnamese: Ngày Thống nhất), also known as Victory Day (Ngày Chiến thắng), Liberation Day (Ngày Giải phóng or Ngày Giải phóng miền Nam), or by its official name, Day of the Liberation of the South and National Reunification (Ngày Giải phóng miền Nam, thống nhất đất nước). What's attested in the source material does include that Ngày Giải phóng form, but also includes forms like ngày Giải phóng and Ngày giải phóng, as well as ngày giải phóng. I don't know enough about Vietnamese (which presumably has style guides from various sources that argue for one style or another). Maybe something to ask about at WT:VIET and WT:LING, maybe even at WP:RDL. Someone fluent in the language might recognize these as particular styles from particular quarters, and have some idea which is more conventional and why. Anyway, I don't think there's a problem with capitalizing "Liberation Day" in this context, since it's not just a literal translation that isn't in actual use, but is in actual use, simply not the most common name for the event/holiday in English.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)