Talk:False messiah

It's a stub, so the no reference tag needn't be used and please state why you feel the article violates NPOV. I will remove it for now. MarcusGraly 15:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm also tempted to remove the second paragraph. It seems somewhat irrelevant. MarcusGraly 15:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

POV

Due to the fact that it is only in Judaism that any and all claimants, including Yeshua, are "false," redirecting "false messiah" to list of messiah claimants acts as a POV link pro-Judaism. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 00:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Been over this before...

For those just tuning in, see Talk:List of messiah claimants.

Stevertigro, Judaism does not blanket deny all Messiahs. This would imply that there is no Messiah in Judaism, which is plainly false. There are various other issues on your version of this page, too (I don't think the "List of people claiming to be the Mahdi" is a good link here). The bit on the Antichrist is written as a factoid in your version, not in disambiguation page style. I'm not saying my current wording is perfect, mind, but we really need to be careful with blanket statements on religion, as people get very touchy about that subject. SnowFire (talk) 03:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

(reprinted from Talk:List of messiah claimants) Your comment is self contradictory. What difference is there between saying '[Judaism regards] none of the known claimants as real' and '[Judaism regards] all of the known claimants as false?' Keep in mind that False messiah was nothing but a redirect to this page for years - a sign that previous editors regarded the difference between 'false claimant' and 'any claimant' as nil. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 22:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

And we both agree that was a mistake. I wouldn't read too much into the fact this was a redirect. (If nothing else, Jesus is correctly on the list of claimants, and a substantial number of Wikipedians would certainly not consider him a false Messiah.)

The new page isn't really disambig style, and I think I liked it better the other way, but it's okay for now. I'll stop back if I have any better ideas on improving it. SnowFire (talk) 03:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Chabad messianism

I have removed a see also link to Chabad messianism from the beginning of the False messiah in Judaism section. The reason being that it is already linked in Jewish Messiah claimants, and we do not mention all of those here. Not to mention that there is a difference in Judaism between righteous false messiahs and messiah claimants , like in the case of Bar Kokhba or the case in question of Chabad messianism. Debresser (talk) 02:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Article status

@Editor2020:, @Setareh1990:: Since there's been a merge tag on this article for awhile... and it was originally started as now-banned user Stevertigo's bizarre ramblings... is there anything actually *worthwhile* to stick in this article? I don't think there's any useful general concept of false messiahs to be had that isn't a dictionary definition. In other words, Jewish Messiah claimants, Antichrist, and Masih ad-Dajjal are all worthy articles, but there isn't anything ACTUALLY connecting them. No article can sensibly be written on their similarities. For example, look at the likes of Thunder god, which just redirects to List of thunder gods so that people can see more about Thor, Zeus, etc. There isn't any article to be written on "thunder gods in general" that assume Thor & Zeus are somehow related. SnowFire (talk) 02:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I think it provides a useful cross-religious comparison of false messiahs, but I won't be heart broken if it is decided to merge. I just wanted to make sure it was discussed first. Editor2020, Talk 19:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Merger

This page was merged, per discussion here, on 21 December, The text was restored this morning, with this edit, and with the edit summary “Undo redirect. This is a discussion of the phenomenon, not a list”.
I have undone the restoration, as there were good reasons to merge this article, and broad agreement to do so. If there are any objections to this, they are invited here.
Also, as one of the issues with the article was it's non-neutral stance and original research, I suggest that even if the title is valid for an examination of the subject, and not just a content fork, it needs to be completely re-written, not merely re-instated as before. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

My opinions are basically the same as above. I'm in favor of a merger, but I also think the current article is mostly harmless in its current form (as opposed to certain other articles which are actively misleading or inane rambles), so I'm not hugely fussed if someone wants to keep it. SnowFire (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I have replied on Moonraker12's talkpage, that his edit wouldn't have been reverted, had he mentioned the merger discussion in the edit summary. His vulgar post on my talkpage I summarily deleted. Debresser (talk) 07:42, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

And if Debresser had bothered to look, or had followed the “Discuss” link any time in the last six months, he'd have found the merge discussion as easily as I did. As for the vulgarity of my post to his talk page I'll leave it for others to decide. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:45, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Create a dab page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Proposal withdrawn by nominator. False messiah should point to List of messiah claimants, where it talks about what "False messiah" meaning in all the Abrahamic religions. Nominator apologizes for wasting time. CookieMonster755 ^{📞 ✉ ✓} 03:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

---

I am proposing to create a disambiguation page. There is clearly no primary topic of False messiah, and it has several meanings. False messiah could refer to:

• In Abrahamic religions:
  • In Judaism: Jewish Messiah claimants
  • In Christianity / Messianic Judaism: Antichrist (Antimessiah)
  • In Islam: Masih ad-Dajjal

It also may refer to List of fictional Antichrists (List of fictional Antimessiahs) or Antichrist Superstar (Antimessiah Superstar). A thing to point out: Christ and Messiah mean the same thing. Christ comes from Greek Christós, a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ) and the Syriac (M'shiha), the Messiah. Both mean Anointed one or Anointed.

Since there are multiply meanings, there is no primary topic and therefore having the redirect point to Jewish Messiah claimants is not NPOV and is bias towards Judaism. If you support or oppose this requested disambiguation creation, please add your voice below. Thanks! CookieMonster755 ^{📞 ✉ ✓} 18:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

This article was always somewhat of a disambiguation pages, with short sections devoted to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Then it was turned into a redirect in this edit of October 10, 2015 after minimal discussion at Talk:List of messiah claimants#Suggestion to merged the article False messiah in to this article here. A short discussion followed on this talkpage, where I opposed the merge, but Moonraker12 pushed it through. I agree with the proposal to make this into a disambiguation page again. Debresser (talk) 18:07, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm confused. This doesn't redirect to Jewish Messiah claimants; it redirects to List of messiah claimants, which includes several religions. Additionally, some of the topics you describe above might be "See also" material, but are definitely not "disambiguation"... nobody is going to look for the Antichrist Superstar album via typing in a vaguely related sort-of-synonym.

LAs for Debresser's comment, let me state again that there's nothing wrong with content on the false messiah, I just struggle to see why it should be separated into multiple different articles. Just pick one and have the other synonyms redirect to it.

I'm tentatively opposed for now, but maybe I'm misunderstanding something about CookieMonster's proposal... SnowFire (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

SnowFire Thank you for correcting me. I have been very tired today. You are exactly right, it does not point to Jewish Messiah claimants. It points to List of messiah claimants. Yes, there is See also material. Now that I think about it, False messiah should point to List of false messiahs, because it does have a hatnote for Antichrist, Masih ad-Dajjal and Jewish Messiah claimants. Closing discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.