Talk:Fama Fraternitatis

Rose Cross & the Templars

There are huge similarities between the organisation and ideals of the Fraternity of the Rose Cross in the Fama Fraternitas and the original organisation and ideals of the Knights Templar when it was only nine rather penniless knights (interestingly there are supposed to be only 9 Brothers of the RC according to the FF. Even more interestingly, the ninth original Templar remains unnammed and unidentified to this day). Given the link between the use of the image of the Rose Cross by the Lisbon Templars this might have some credence behind it. The Portuguese Templars, along with the Scots Templars, were one of the branches which didn't get arrested and put on trial. The King of Portugal thought the charges were fake and found his Templars not guilty, no-one knows quite why the Scots Templars got away... ahem... Scot-free. :-) If there is a link between the Templars and the Rosicrucians it would make sense of the legend that Christian RC spent a lot of time in the Middle East talking to Arab mystics and doctors. The Templars were accused of spending a little too much time with the Sufis, as did St Francis of Assissi apparently. The Templar/RC connection becomes even more interesting when one considers that the year in which Max Heindel claims the movement was founded (1313) was the year in which the Templars were finally liquidated by Philip the Fair of France's bullying of the Pope.

On the other hand, it could all just be a load of hocus-pocus. ;-) ThePeg 17:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's a reference. You decide:

"Together with seven other knights [Hugues de Payen and Godfrey de St Omer] proposed to guard the pilgrims as they made their way to and from the Holy Places. But they would not do so as regular knights - they would live as a small monastic community, following the rule of St Augustine... The King approved the plan and, on Christmas Day, Hugues and Godfrey swore vows of poverty, chastity and obedience... Within weeks of the founding of the Order, the Templars were introduced to the clergy at the Council of Nablus. The nine knights were accepted by those present and Hugues and his brothers began their task of policing the kingdom. The other founding knights were : Payen de Montdidier; Andre de Montbard; Archambaud de St Aignan, Geoffrey Bisol; two knights known only by their Christian names or Roland and Gondemar; while the ninth member remains unknown" The Knights Templar by Sean Martin, Page 25, ISBN 1904048285

also from the same book, page 31:

"In his speech, Hugues described the origins of the Order and the rule by which they lived; communal meals taken in silence; plain clothing; no women. Each brother swore vows of poverty, chastity and obedience upon entering the Order. As the brethren were frequently called out of the Temple on knightly business, they were each allowed one horse and a handful of servants. When away from the Temple, recitation of paternosters replaced hearing the offices. Knights and their servants were under Hugues' command, with the whole order being answerable to the Patriarch of Jerusalem"

Compare all this to what the Brethren of the RC undertake in their vows. V interesting. :-) ThePeg 20:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Identities

The article identifies two of the Brothers of the RC as Johannes Andreae and Francis Bacon. This is fine except for the fact that we don't know this for sure. Its purely supposition (Bacon, for instance, was not a painter or an architect), even though the initials fit and even though it may be correct. Shouldn't there be some note in the article about this?

Also, there seems to be a connection between Dee and the Rosicrucians. Although it doesn't feature in the Fama or the Confessio Dee's Hieroglyphic Monad features on the opening pages of the Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz which is believed to be written by Andreae. Frances Yates posits that Andreae and Dee may have met during Dee's travels in Europe, probably in Bohemia, which, incidentally, is where Max Heindel claims the secret location of the Ascended Rosicrucians is located (Bohemia is also the English translation of the word Boehme, as in Jakob Boehme). Since Dee invented the Monad it seems likely that Andreae, in using it, either knew him or his work. Of course, it may have got to Andreae via Bacon, if Bacon really was a Rosicrucian etc. Bacon and Dee were contemporaries after all. ThePeg 14:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The initials identification contains a "?": the idea at the time was to express with it, as you correctly stated, that it is a "purely supposition", but perhaps this should be clearly stated in the article, that it is just a supposition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.58.99.77 (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Group Authorship

Does anyone know if anyone has put forward the theory that the Fama and Confessio were composed through a group authorship? They are presented as statements of a brotherhood but there is a sense to the writing that it has been composed by consensus as a group statement as opposed to the Chymical Wedding which has a very distinct style. If you look at other Rosicrucian texts (eg John Heydon's The Rose Cross Unveiled) they feel more individual. These seem more committee composed.

Also, is it not possible, in terms of Christian Rosenkreutz's putative existence that the Fama contains a mixture of allegory and fact? There may well have been a guy who did all these things (went to Arabia, Spain etc) who used the name C R as a pseudonym whose life is loosely described here. This is mixed up with the more allegorical description of the Tomb and finding his body etc. The whole R C manifestoes phenomema is sometimes described as a Ludibrium - ie a game-playing text which contains a mixture of literal and allegorical truth as well as genuine obscurantism so as to discover who is able to penetrate the truth or not - he who has ears to hear, let them hear - this might be a useful way of understanding the two documents. The texts are full of vieled references to a host of ideas Alchemical, Gnostic, Hermetic, Kaballistic, Sufic and mainstream Judaic, Christian and Islamic. Perhaps the riddle of them both is that they can only be understood when a lot of other things have been understood, then one might get to the truth. Does anyone know if this has been explored? ThePeg 17:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I surely do agree with your last comment: that is also the reason why the article mentions several authors and some philosophical concepts (i.e. rebirth and the Christic transmutation) and it is not limited only to an historic 'orthodox' approach. Obviously, the article, which was just edited as an initial attempt to understand deeper the "mixture of allegory and fact", may be improved with enlightening contributions; I guess this should be welcome when done with an altruistic purpose: in the sense that it was stated that a fundamental requisite is "that we be earnest to attain to the understanding and knowledge of philosophy". May you somehow add the above clarifying research of yours into the article or even re-construct the article itself? I think am not able advance it any further, at least not at this time. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.58.99.77 (talk) 23:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Ok. You might also want to look at this link re the Fama: http://map.twentythree.us/board/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=144&start=0 ThePeg 14:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The Name

Why is it called the Fama Fraternitatis? What is the significance of the name? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockwell1916 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)