Talk:Fame (David Bowie song)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bowie Fame90.jpg

Image:Bowie Fame90.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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Fair use rationale for Image:Bowie Fame.jpg

Image:Bowie Fame.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 18:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale has since been added to the image in question. Cheers, Ian Rose 09:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bowie Fame90.jpg

Image:Bowie Fame90.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a note about the relationship of this song to James Brown's "Hot (I Need to Be Loved...)" It was an observation already made in the entry for Brown. The language is a bit weasely, and the note about the plundering is arguably superfluous, but I feel these are meaningful here, certainly the uncanny (re-)borrowing of the entire substance of the music and production. Feel free to reword, of course. bntrpy 20:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

James Brown plagiarzied this?

I removed that part, as it was unsourced and a pretty serious accusation. Zeldafanjtl (talk) 18:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

--The Wikipedia article for the James Brown song Hot (I Need to Be Loved, Loved, Loved) mentions that the riff was borrowed from "Fame".

Additional Fame Sample

The intro to "Fame" was sampled and used as the intro for "Get Loose" off of the 2010 album, "Revolutions per Minute" by Reflection Eternal. I am not familiar with the formatting of the pages and was not sure how to edit it correctly, but if anyone wants to add this, do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1:9C80:3FB:8122:F0C0:CAF6:4D00 (talk) 19:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

What is the timing on this song

What is the timing on this song? It sounds like 7/8.--134.134.139.76 (talk) 16:04, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a mix of 4/4 and your guess of 7/8 to me. The verses, especially, sound to be 4/4/. The open is definitely not 4/4. THX1136 (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Wrong release date

US RCA released this sooner than 25 July 1975. This is borne out by reviews of this single in the 14 June 1975 issue of Billboard, and in the 21 June 1975 issues of Cash Box and Record World. However, UK RCA issued this on 18 July, no doubt in the wake of the US release. –Wbwn (talk) 23:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Wbwn Interesting info. Do you have any sources that support this? Chris O'Leary gives it as 25 July and unfortunately he's the only one I can confirm at the moment. – zmbro _(talk) 23:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

The smoking gun would be the 14 June 1975 issue of Billboard, which reviewed it in its "Top Single Picks" on page 51 (it was the first of 46 singles spotlighted in that section), and listed it as "Chart Bound" in the top right corner of the Hot 100 of that date on page 52. It also debuted on the Hot 100 28 June 1975 (page 80), at #90 - four weeks before Chris O'Leary's claimed release date. David Gleason's World Radio History site would have these Billboards (and more), possibly even Google Books.

However, the book "David Bowie: The Golden Years" by Roger Griffin (link: https://books.google.com/books?id=EKE2DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT368&lpg=PT368&dq=David+Bowie+Fame+PB-10320+release+date&source=bl&ots=BSmE4S39Us&sig=ACfU3U2-HM7B92vwPB9bNbx8h7-othxR7w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiuj9_x4rDwAhUHF1kFHV20DWgQ6AEwCnoECBUQAw#v=onepage&q=David%20Bowie%20Fame%20PB-10320%20release%20date&f=false ) lists the US PB-10320's release date as 2 June 1975. Again, the UK release date was 18 July. –Wbwn (talk) 19:38, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Ah ok. Griffin is one I don't own so maybe I should look into that. Bowie is one artist I've always gotten confused on when it comes to release dates, as the majority of them (especially 69–80) are extremely inconsistent. David Buckley gives 2 August 1975 as the week "Fame" entered the UK chart (which to me would imply a July release date). Pegg only gives "8/75", further stating: "It became a US number one in the summer of 1975" (which to me implies June–August). Sandford, Spitz, and Trynka don't give specific dates so O'Leary seems to be the only one (that I own at least) that can confirm. Does Griffin give both 2 June and 18 July or just 2 June? Wbwn – zmbro _(talk) 23:32, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

To add, Ultimate Classic Rock states: "When "Fame" was released in July 1975 as the second single from Bowie's Young Americans album, it shot to No. 1 and stayed there for two weeks." It didn't hit No. 1 in the UK so this would imply the US release was in July. – zmbro _(talk) 23:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That Google Books preview only cites that page, does not go to where the UK release would be. The book cited 2 June as the U.S. release date, they probably, when they got to 18 July, cited the UK single release of "Fame." However, a weekly British publication, The New Singles, cited the 18 July date among new releases that week. –Wbwn (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Wbwn Yeah we seem to be in a predicament here. Other than UCR, most things I'm finding online just say "1975" which doesn't help one bit. Decided to look a little deeper and Sandford actually does give "August 1975" and confirmed Spitz and Trynka don't give dates, neither does Doggett. I'm surprised Bowie's website hasn't brought anything up about it considering how much they've changed dates over the years. Maybe for this single it would be best to just have a month and year and not a specific date, as there seems to be no consistency regarding when it actually came out. – zmbro _(talk) 16:11, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

More specifically, US and UK release dates. Some other singles listed on this site have that discrepancy. –Wbwn (talk) 00:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Wrong section?

There is a paragraph talking about an animation from 1975 featuring the song, but it is in the Fame '90 section. Am I just reading it wrong or should it be moved Pasta 4431 (talk) 16:51, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Pasta 4431 Moved it up. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. – zmbro _(talk) 18:29, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Pasta 4431 (talk) 18:51, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Addition of Beatles sources

Hey Zmbro. I grabbed some books off my shelf that will help provide more on how this song fits in the context of John's career at that point. A few things:

• Do references [11] and [12] on the current version of the page (the Timothy White radio interview and Spitz 2009, p. 249) support dating the session to January 1975? Keith Badman also provides the imprecise January 1975 dating, while Chip Madinger & Mark Easter give a precise date of 5 February 1975. Each source states "Across the Universe" and "Fame" were recorded during the same session.
• Both Badman and Robert Rodriguez write that Bowie and Lennon first met in February 1974 at a Los Angeles party hosted by Elizabeth Taylor (Badman further states it was her birthday party).
• The last paragraph of the Composition and recording section makes it sound like "Fame" came before "Across the Universe", while my sources make it sound like it was the other way around. Badman provides this undated Lennon quotation:

  David rang and told me he was going to do a version of 'Across The Universe' and I thought 'great' because I'd never done a good version of that song myself. It's one of my favourite songs, but I didn't like my version of it. So I went down and played rhythm on the track. Then he got this lick, so me and him put this together in another song called 'Fame' ... I had fun!

• Slightly different than O'Leary's personnel listing, Rodriguez writes Lennon contributed backing vocals, acoustic guitar and "backward piano".
• Rodriguez provides an interesting origin for the song's lyrics. I'll just copy-paste the important parts here:

  Despite John's flippant dismissal of the glam rock scene that Bowie embodied during his early successes in the decade ("It's just rock and roll with lipstick on it"), and his on-air joke at Bowie's expense (reading a commercial for a club offering a "ladies night" during a disc jockeying session, Lennon observed, "Good! Bowie can get in"), the two would converse at length on the conundrum of fame – how attaining it obsessed you when you lacked it and what a burden it was when you achieved it.
  ... Given the chance to jam, John would always revert to the '50s-era songs of his youth, warning the studio players around him that he really didn't know anything released after 1963. It so happened that Bowie guitarist Carlos Alomar had been playing around with a riff inspired by the Flares' 1961 hit, "Foot-stomping."
  As Alomar tinkered, Lennon – as was his wont – yelled out whatever came into his head. His repeated shout of "aim!" caught Bowie's ever-attentive ears that way it fell into place against the melody. With the addition of an "f" before it – Bowie has contradicted himself as to whose idea it was – the whole idea of the song as a vehicle for commenting on the topic suggested itself. The singer quickly say down to scribble down some lyrics, tapping his recollection of the conversations that he and John had had on the subject, while Lennon worked out a chord arrangement to support Alomar's guitar line.

Those are some of the differences I noticed between our sources. Context wise, several of my sources discuss how Bowie and Lennon's collaboration came at a particularly productive time for John – coinciding with Walls and Bridges, lots of TV and radio appearance, along with what was nearly his only post-Beatles collaboration with McCartney – before his return to Yoko in early-'75 resulted in him putting everything on hold for the next five years. Anyway, that's probably enough for now. Tkbrett (✉) 18:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the input Tkbrett! It's been a while since I touched this – it was actually one of the first Bowie things I worked on when I only had a few bios. Since it looked like this at the time I wanted to present what I had to the table, although it definitely appears some of that info isn't entirely accurate. I've been wanting to come back to it and this post might be a good reason to.

• In terms of your first point, yes I believe they do. O'Leary also says "c. 12–15 January 1975" for both "Across" and "Fame" which helps (I do know for a fact they were both recorded in the same session)
• After learning more and more about these periods (when writing Young and 'Station), I believe you're right, Bowie did meet Lennon at a Liz Taylor party (O'Leary even confirms it)
• As the article already states: "Sources differ on how "Fame" came to be in the studio;" based on further research when writing other articles (even expanding the Bowie section of the "Across" article itself), I believe Doggett and Pegg are right by saying they were "happy accidents". "Across" appears before "Fame" in O'Leary's Rebel Rebel, and it definitely appears that they only intended to do "Across" before "Fame" happened. O'Leary even says "Lennon had come to Electric Lady to play on 'Across...' and hung around afterward."
• I'd add Rodriguez to the sourcing as imo anything helps (O'Leary actually says "supervised the backwards piano track")
• I believe that is more in line as to what happened. When I first expanded it I don't believe I owned O'Leary yet, which makes sense as he's only sourced in personnel. He's one of the best as he gives detailed insights into the makings of all the tracks and such. His input on "Fame", which I'm reading for the first time, is pretty in line with what Rodriguez says, but also says that Lennon had recently (1) recorded Rock 'n' Roll, meaning the type of style "Fame" originated from was still fresh in his memory; and (2) was experiencing management issues with A. Klein like Bowie was with Defries and MainMan, reflected in tracks like "Steel and Glass"

Based on my current knowledge yes this period was very active for Lennon, but he nevertheless was still in his "lost weekend" phase. I think we can do some touch-ups and I'll put this back on my list. Because before this I didn't even think about using Beatles sources here. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 19:16, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Tkbrett Making course corrections at my sandbox. If you wanna help out there I'd greatly appreciate it! :-) – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 19:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

References