Talk:Families in the Oireachtas

Patrick+Kieran Crotty

Does anyone have any evidence as to whether Kieran Crotty is the son (or other relative) of Patrick Crotty? Their dates of birth, and the fact that Patrick succeeded Kieran at the 1969 general election[1] suggests that this Fine Gael seat in Carlow-Kilkenny may have been kept with the family … but it would be nice to have some evidence. The two men were both Mayors of Kilkenny, but the list of mayors on the Kilkenny Borough Council website offers no comment about any family relationship. I have searched the Dáil proceedings for the whole of Kieran Crotty's tenure as TD for any reference to "father" in his speeches, but without success. --BrownHairedGirl (talk • contribs) 12:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

They were father and son, see here [2]. I have added them in. Snappy56 (talk) 11:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Beltons

Several people called Belton have been TDs and Senators over the years, mostly for Dublin North or Dublin North East (see Beltons in the Oireachtas members database. Does anyone have any verifiable information on any family relationships between them? --BrownHairedGirl (talk • contribs) 15:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Avril Doyle is a member of the Belton family. From Avril Doyle's webpage: http://www.avrildoyle.ie/profile.htm

"Avril Doyle's extensive political experience has deep roots in her own family history, going back to the foundation of the State. Her father, Dr. Dick Belton, was a member of Oireachtas Eireann as was her grandfather, Paddy Belton, who was also Lord Mayor of Dublin. Two of Avril Doyle's uncles, Jack and Paddy Belton, were also Lord Mayors of Dublin and members of the Oireachtas. Two cousins of hers, Luke and Louis Belton, have also been members of the Oireachtas.

Great information, thanks, I've used it to update the list --Rye1967 01:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been reading the obituaries of the recently deceased Louis Belton TD and trying to figure out how he was related to the other Belton members of the Oireachtas.

The Irish Times says: "A grand-uncle, Paddy Belton, was elected to the Dáil in 1927."

The Irish Independent says: "The dynasty began with his grandfather, Patrick Belton from Rathcline, who was elected a Fianna Fáil TD in 1927 for Dublin County."

This page previously showed that Louis was Patrick/Paddy's nephew.

Two of the three must be wrong, and my analysis of birth, marriage and death records suggests that all three are actually wrong!

Am I correct in thinking that Louis and the first Belton TD were only first cousins once removed?

This would mean that Louis was second cousin once removed to Avril Doyle, close enough for her to claim him as a "cousin" of unspecified degree.

Technically, Louis does not appear to even qualify for this page. I'll leave him on the list for now with a footnote in the hope that the newspapers may eventually correct their errors. At least it is good to know that our media makes its own errors instead of either publishing the truth or copying the errors on Wikipedia! Pwaldron (talk) 03:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Clohessy

Are Patick Clohessy, Farmer, Limerick East, FF, 1957-69, born 1908 and Peadar Clohessy, b1934, Farmer, Limerck East, FF/PD, 1981-97 related? - Rye1967 22:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Uncle/Nephew. Answered by Zachler 25 Sept 2010. Aah, the wonder of Wikipedia --Rye1967 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

No references have been provided. Snappy (talk) 17:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

MacSharry

Are Ray MacSharry, FF, Sligo and Marc MacSharry FF Senator, 2002- related?--Rye1967 09:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Father and son. See [3]. I have added them in. Snappy56 21:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Esmonde

ElectionsIreland mentions Osmond, Anthony, John, and William. I haven't been able to identify the realationships. Burke's Peerage should help, but it doesn't really. Any thoughts?? JXM 16:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope that Esmonde Baronets helps. Have updated the links to reflect their names: I have used he titles as a std form of disambiguation (there are, for example, lots of John Esmondes). --BrownHairedGirl ^{(talk) • (contribs)} 13:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just added 4 on top of the Esmondes, including Henry Grattan. Probably we should move them all to the G section.PatrickGuinness (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

PS It's quite something to find a lineage that runs from the Irish parliament of the 1700s through Westminster down to the Oireachtas.PatrickGuinness (talk) 22:13, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Finally got around to moving this to the G section. And yes, PatrickGuinness, it is indeed an impressive lineage - much like yr own! :-) (There must be a family link to the old Esmonde Motors Ford dealership, but I haven't found it yet.) jxm (talk) 23:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Good man. "Sir Osmond Esmonde", lol.PatrickGuinness (talk) 12:56, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Same seat?

The intro to the article mentions family members succeeding each other in the same seat. But we've extended the list well beyond that narrow definition. I think I'll rework the opening sentences to reflect the wider definition. JXM 16:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, and while you're at it, is the definiton of relatives accurate now that we have cousins, in-laws, newphews etc--Rye1967 23:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)?

Westminster

What would you think about extending this back to Westminster? I think Conor Cruise O'Brien and Owen Sheehy Skeffington would be more suitable listed with David Sheehy than Seán MacEntee. William Quill 13:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think adding Westminster members is OK where they stood for an Irish constituency. It would be useful for local historians. Perhaps shown in brackets?Red Hurley 20:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd support including pre-1918 political links, although we may have to rename the article to Irish political dynasties in such an event.

I've just added once such (and unusual) link:

• T. P. Gill (1858–1931): Irish Parliamentary Party/Anti-Parnellite MP South Louth 1885–1892;
  • his nephew Tomás Mac Giolla (born 1924): Workers' Party TD Dublin West 1982–1992

I'm sure there are plenty more MP/TD links.--Damac 23:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to adding MPs who were not member of the Oireachtas (as opposed to TDs who were also members of the Oireachtas) then the article should be re-named as you are moving the beyond the scope of the original article. Also, you should update the intro because at present it doesn't mention Westminster MPs; only TDs, Senators and MEPs. Snappy56 16:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

FF and FG

Per the links guidelines, I'd like to suggest that we unlink all the FF and FG links, and replace them with a note at the top identifying the abbreviations used. The two parties could then be linked from that note. Any objections? If nobody minds, I'll make the change in the next few days, or whenever I can get to it. Mike Christie (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Added the Pearses

Mother & daughter, and PHP for ref.Red Hurley 12:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Great addition there, we tend to forget the older generations. But I took PP off of his own line because he wasn't elected - as per heading. There is also a problem with Dillon and Dockrell, since they weren't members of the Oireachtas, but if we extend it back, as per earlier suggestion, then they would qualify.

OK, (whoever you are) but he should be there in brackets by his mother so as to clarify who the Margaret Ps were.Red Hurley 13:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Oops, the above unsigned comment was me --Rye1967 08:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Brady/Kitt family

There are now two entries for the Brady family, one under 'B' and one under 'K' each with differing data. Convention has been to keep all relatives together in one place, even when there is more than one surname, see Lemass/Haughey. I propose we move the 'Brady' family to the Kitt section since the scion, Philip Brady, is not notable enough to have had his own page created by now.--Rye1967 08:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I added in Philip & Gerard Brady. If you want to group them with the Kitts together, go ahead. Snappy56 11:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Aylwards

I've added Bob Aylward, father of Liam Aylward and Bobby Aylward. Info from Liam Aylward's website [4]. There is an Edward Aylward who served as a Sinn Fein TD for Carlow-Kilkenny (same constituency as Liam and Bobby) from 1921-22 (2nd Dáil). Anyone know if he is a relation of theirs? Snappy56 12:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

James Ryan

Added his brothers-in-law.Red Hurley 09:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Important point, yes, but self-referential

The following is indeed important, and correct:

"In accordance with Wikipedia's rules, only verifiable family relationships have been included."

... but stating directly in the article text is contrary to avoid self-references. (And could be seen as protesting too much, really: it's not as if most of this is has references.) Alai (talk) 13:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It's reasonable to suppose that articles are written by knowledgeable people; most are short bios; and to double-check we have this government maintained page: http://oireachtas.ie/members-hist/ which is probably OK.Red Hurley (talk) 20:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

JC's children

Thought we should have the Connolly family included; no comments about nepotism please. Like the Pearse and Collins families, this suggests a pensionary system for the offspring of the 1916 rebels which lasted for decades.Red Hurley (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Carters in Longford-Westmeath

Anyone have any sources on whether there was any relationship between two FF TDs for Longford-Westmeath

• Thomas Carter (TD various points until 1951)
• Frank Carter (politician) (TD 1951–1957, 1961–1977)

The only reference I have found so far is http://www.irishidentity.com/extras/people/stories/doris.htm ... which doesn't look to me like a reliable source. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Relationships just outside the permitted degrees of kindred

Davitt/Hogan-O'Higgins: On 8 January 1930, Patrick Hogan (Cumann na nGaedhael) married Mona Davitt, née Farrell, widow of Dr. Michael Davitt, who was brother of Robert Davitt (see Weekly Irish Times, 18 January 1930). There are numerous ways of describing this relationship, but does it fit within the specific criteria for this page?

There is an online Davitt pedigree [5] but it is riddled with errors!

Pwaldron (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Hogan-Brennan: Hogan had another connection probably too remote to merit inclusion: his first cousin Christina Hogan (or niece, according to the DIB) married Austin Brennan, brother of Patrick Brennan, SF TD for Clare, 1921-3.

Kelly-Burke: Also in Clare, Patrick Michael Kelly (1878-1934), Cumann na nGaedhael TD for Clare 1927-1932[6] married Bridget Kelly (née Kelly), first cousin once removed of Patrick Burke (1879-1945), FG TD for Clare 1932-1945.[7]

Kelly-Childers: Also just outside the permitted degrees of kindred: John Maurice Kelly FG Senator 1969-1973, FG TD for Dublin South Central 1973-1977, FG TD for Dublin County South 1977-1981, FG TD for Dublin South 1981-1989, married Delphine Dudley, first cousin (of the half blood) of Nessa Childers (Burke's Irish Family Records 1976, p.233 and p.264).

Pwaldron (talk) 22:18, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

O'Brien-Magnier: I have just added these, since "first cousin-in-law" seems to fall just within the permitted degrees of kindred, although this is the first instance of such a relationship on the list. Mary Ann O'Brien's father and John Magnier's father-in-law are the brothers and racehorse trainers Phonsie O'Brien and Vincent O'Brien.

Pwaldron (talk) 09:23, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Dealing with dynasties

We don't seem to be representing the reality of dynasties very well.

By focusing on Oireachtas/MEP members, a consistency problem arises when an original family ancestor was a Westminster MP. For example, MPs head the current listings that start with Alfie Byrne or TP Gill, which contravenes the article's introduction.

Furthermore, to be useful, the entry for Redmonds should really start with John Edward Redmond (1806-1865) and include several other family members. Tim Healy and Maurice Healy are the MPs that should begin the O'Higgins list and, as noted above, MP Robert Davitt (son of MP Michael Davitt), is linked to Patrick Hogan.

Maybe, as Snappy56 noted almost two years ago, we should consider renaming the article.

jxm (talk) 23:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The preamble says "The list has been indexed against the name of the first family member to enter the Oireachtas."

I took that to mean the post-1919 Oireachtas, and just moved Bolands/Crowleys to O'Byrne, as Boland was a pre-1918 MP.

Then I noticed that both of the two most recent additions begin with a pre-1918 MP.

Should we change the preamble to read "...first family member to enter the House of Commons or Oireachtas" before editing the remainder of the article for consistency with the preamble?

Pwaldron (talk) 23:48, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus to move page at this time, per discussion below. - GTBacchus^(talk) 00:29, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

---

Families in the Oireachtas → Families in Irish Politics — Should show political dynasties that started before Dail and show relations in local government. — Lostexpectation (talk) 04:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. That is not so much a proposal for renaming as a proposal for a huge expansion of the scope of the article. It introduces a series of major changes:

1. Local councillors, who are much less thoroughly documented on wikipedia and elsewhere, making it much harder to verify family relationships. Unlike TDs, Senators and MEPs, local councillors do not have an automatic presumption of notability per WP:POLITICIAN, and in many cases this would mean that adding to the list non-notable people whose relationships to others cannot be verified. I am aware that many political families represented in the Oireachtas also have a base in local politics, but per WP:NLIST, lists should not include non-notable people.
2. The list already includes members of the Oireachtas whose relatives served as MPs at Westminster before the foundation of the Oireachtas. However, removing the requirement that one member of the family served in the Oireachtas massively widens the scope of the list, by extending it back to at least the Act of Union 1800. Since that includes the period before partition, it changes the list from being a predominantly 26-county list to a 32-county list, at which point there is no logical reason to exclude members of the Parliament of Northern Ireland or the subsequent Northern Irish Assemblies.

Either of those changes (let alone both of them) would create a hugely expanded list, which I think would be too diffuse to be easily maintained. I suppose I may be biased as the creator of this list, but I feel that its precise focus on independent Ireland has been shown over the last 3½ years to work very well: it has been fairly stable, is now reasonably complete, and (AFAICS) contains no red links.

I do think that it would be a great idea to have a similar but separate list of family relationships amongst parliamentarians in pre-independent Ireland, possibly restricted to 1801-1922 MPs for Irish constituencies in Westminster, or possibly including the pre-1801 Parliament of Ireland. Sourcing might be more difficult for that period, but I see no logical problem in separating the two periods, because apart from 1922 marking the point of partition, there was very little continuity of political personnel between Westminster and the Oireachtas. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:07, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

• I have notified Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland of this proposal. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Families_in_the_Oireachtas. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. I have to agree with BHG's well reasoned argument. ww2censor (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment - its deceptive not to show the family dynasties fully. including local council, it also removes the gaps in years given for their dates as td/sen, these people didn't just appear out of nowhere most were in local government first. there are huge gaps if we don't show the family connections, at the very least we should show councillors who have relations in the dail currently. ie if there one td with a sister in a council we should show that link. its deceptive not to show the cases where parliamentarian got a head start in politics by being co-opted onto a relations position on the councils and then moving onto the oireachtas. its stable, means its time to improve it. i don't know how you can say a local government councillor isn't significant.they are elected politicians, there listed by several organisation at the time of election a registry is put out after election by the gov of all councillors, their names are in the papers recently when they decided voting blocks, there's electionsireland.org, they noted on the council minutes, they exist and they run your area, wikipedia is a base to gather information, not to be afraid to gather it. i'll make another own page that i'll invite others to add information to, and you can keep this one for yourself if you want. Lostexpectation (talk) 21:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

• Don't forget to throw your toys out of your pram when you're have a sulk! Snappy (talk) 00:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - per BHG's arguments. Thoroughly ill-thought out proposal, I mean are we going to go back to the 12th century Norman conquest? As for local councillors, 99% of them are not notable, a relationship with a member of the Oireachtas doesn't make them notable. Snappy (talk) 00:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose but would support the idea of a separate linked FIIP page - iI warn you it could be huge. "Oireachtas" is quite specific - former living TDs and current TDs, Senators and La Presidenta. But not former Presidents and senators. Status of MEPs - sort of honorary members because the first MEPs were serving TDs. No councillors or Udaras types or BMW reps.Red Hurley (talk) 11:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Such a new list would need to have a clearly distinct approach, and not simply be an expansion of this one -- otherwise it would just be a POV fork. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

New sources

Dail family trees show clans who rule Ireland, Sunday Independent. Fianna Fail political dynasties, Sunday Independent. --candle•wicke 15:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Biggar/Bigger

They are related but can anyone tell us when the spelling changed? Perhaps a typo repeated.Red Hurley (talk) 13:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

...that is, according to the end of Joseph Biggar.Red Hurley (talk) 13:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

The B*ggers are not related...Red Hurley (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

O'Higgins / Healy / Sullivan

Here is a new angle - Kevin O'Higgins was the grandson of Timothy Daniel Sullivan and the nephew of Tim Healy, so in a day or so I propose moving the enormous O'Higgins clan under S for Sullivan. Any objections?Red Hurley (talk) 07:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

No, just make sure to put in a reference to see Sullivan, like: Haughey, see Lemass.

The 5th Guinness

Henry Eustace Guinness, 8th Senate, no article yet, was the MD of Guinness Mahon in the 1940s.86.42.215.68 (talk) 13:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Hillery

There is conflicting evidence in the Irish Times archive and in various other online sources about the relationship between Patrick Hillery and Brian Hillery. The official biography of Patrick Hillery says that his only brother (Des) was born in 1921, suspiciously early to be the father of Brian, whose Wikipedia entry says he was born in 1937, although Brian is frequently described as Patrick's nephew (e.g. [8]). In any case, Brian's father was Thomas (Irish Times, 18 Apr 1970) and Patrick had an uncle Thomas (9 in 1901 census[9], 20 in 1911 census [10]). If these are the same Thomas Hillery, then Patrick and Brian should be noted here and in their individual articles as first cousins. Pwaldron (talk) 13:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I am now certain that Brian Hillery was Paddy Hillery's first cousin, and have amended the page accordingly. I have also added Michael McNamara, current TD, who should have been added when he married Paddy Hillery's granddaughter back in 2015. Pwaldron (talk) 22:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

McDevitt/Reckless

Should the rules for inclusion be altered to allow for the tiny number of families which have included both a member of the Oireachtas and a member of the House of Commons who either sat for a non-Irish constituency or sat after 1922? Henry McDevitt TD and his grandson Mark Reckless MP may even be the only such example. Does anyone know of other such cases? Pwaldron (talk) 11:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I think so, as we mention pre-Independence MPs, like Pierce Mahony, Pierce O'Mahony and Dermot O'Mahony, so we could mention post indpendence MPs. Snappy (talk) 16:58, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Families in the Oireachtas/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I have increased this article's importance from low to mid. I may be biased as the article's initial creator, bit it seems to me that it provides an important illustration of the importance of families in Irish politics. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Frank and Lisa Chambers

Lisa Chambers is identified here as Frank Chambers' niece. However, Frank Chambers' own page explicitly states that Frank Chambers' daughter, Lisa, is not the Lisa Chambers who is currently (2023) a Fianna Fáil Senator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Chambers

Which is correct? Amunnelly (talk) 10:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)