Talk:Fan Noli

Theofan Stilian Mavromati

There are indications that Noli once used the name "Mavromati". See these Google results. Alas they're all in Albanian, which I can't read. Is there any Albanian who can determine the nature of this name, i.e. when and why he adopted it and dropped it again? 84.172.243.39 21:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Copied from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

This reference (see footnote [2]) states that Theofan Stilian Mavromati was his original name. "Fan" is informal for "Theofan", and "S." is short for "Stilian". If this information is correct (see below), the remaining question is: why (and perhaps when) was the surname changed to Noli? I don't know for certain if this played a role, but Mavromati is very obviously a Greek name, and he may have decided to change this to an Albanian name when he became a supporter of the Albanian nationalist movement. However, on the French Wikipedia the article Fan Noli states that his father's name was Stylian Noli, casting doubt on the correctness of the "original name" claim. Although my knowledge of Albanian is negligeable, I have the impression that the timeline found here is saying something like that in July–August 1904 Noli contributed to the democratic Greek magazine "Noumas" (mentioned in the article Kostas Varnalis) using the name Theofan Mavromati. This may have been his original name, put again to use for the occasion, but also quite possibly a newly invented nom-de-plume. The posting on this site appears to tell us that he indeed used Theofan Mavromati as a pseudonym, other pseudonyms used by Noli being Ali Baba Qyteza, Rushit Bilbil Gramshi, Bajram Domosdova, and Namik Namazi. (Qyteza is his birthplace, according to fr:Fan Noli.)  --Lambiam^Talk 12:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

- CarbonLifeForm 22:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Mavromati was probably his original family name. He was known in the Greek community of Alexandria under this name, which means that possibly someone from Greece who knew him better introduced him as a teacher to the community. Here is some info I found in a Greek site, taken from the book “Η Αίγυπτος των Ελλήνων» (The Egypt of the Greeks), by Manolis Gialourakis, 2006, [1] :
In Egypt there was a flourishing Greek community of Cypriots, North Epirotes and others in Shibin El Kom. This community established a Greek school where the young Theophanes Mavromatis was employed as a teacher after the departure of the previous teacher, Aristides Foutrides (Aristides Phoutrides) to USA where he became Prof. of Classical Philoogy in Harvard and Yale. Mavromatis was born either in Komotene (Thrace) or in Euboea and had Greek education. The book says that his mother was Greek, but his surname indicates that his father was also Greek. While teaching in Shibin El Kom, he attempted to apply Albanian nationalistic propaganda to pupils. Their parents complained and was asked to leave from his first year as a teacher. He moved to the Beni Suef Greek community school where he did the same and was asked again to leave after the first year. Then he moved to USA were he became a priest and was promoted rapidly to … “Bishop of Albania”! Based in Boston he issued an Albanian news paper. It is there that he changed his name to Noli. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 19:07, 18 April 2012

If Mavromati was his family name, why should be big news if he used it. Mavromatis does not mean his father was Greek. Where did he learn Albanian, at church? I know plenty of Greeks in Albania with non-Greek last names, i.e, Gizeli, Gjini, Veseli, etc.

People forget he was born in Thrace, and it was normal to have Greek last names. I strongly proclaim the idea that he was Arvanite. The Koprulu clan and the following military staff they brought around with them were all converted to Islam. This theory that there is an Albanian community in Thrake, but not Arvanite, surprisingly all Orthodox, is not really based anywhere. I checked the article Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace and it looks like the main reference to this theory is to Mal Berisha, from an article in AACL. He did not pretend the article was an academic study himself.

During the communist area, there was a strong tendency to show that all important Albanian personages were from Kolonja. I am not sure why. They never mention that the area where he was born was populated by Albanian christian families which were exchanged in 1922 with Muslims from Greece. Or that his family name is Mavromatis.

Mondiad (talk) 02:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

That source is writing THEOFAN STILIAN NOLI , AND NOT MAVROMATI ... It can be thaaaaat simple . I am glad i helped all of you . Now please stop vandalizing the article claiming sources that show the exact opposite of what you claim them to be . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.170.170 (talk) 17:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The link of the Albanian page on Fan Noli states that his surname was indeed Mavromati (black eye - in Greek), which can also be found on Albanian pages over the internet like this: http://koha.net/?id=8&arkiva=1&l=147149 " ... Këto tipare të staturës, Theofan Mavromati djalosh ... " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlad tepes 999 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fannoli.jpg

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BetacommandBot 02:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fannoli.jpg

Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Public office and holy orders

Apart from this guy and Makarios III, does anyone know of anyone else who combined these things as Orthodox Christians. Are they unique? Eugene-elgato (talk) 09:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Also apart from the Greek archbishop who took over shortly at the time Churchill was PM Eugene-elgato (talk) 11:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Is dissertation of Fan S. Noli "irrelevant to the subject" and "completely unnecessary"?

Two users (User:Gaius Claudius Nero and User:Aigest) deleted (diff 1 and diff 2) referenced information about Noli's work on Skanderbeg. The explanations they provided were: "completely unnecessary" (Gaius Claudius Nero) and "irrelevant to the subject" (Aigest).

I believe that it is obvious that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is very relevant for Fan S. Noli and necessary to be presented in the article:

• simply because it was his dissertation
• because Noli's dissertation about Skanderbeg written in 1947 is very important work of Noli which is researched by many scholars including experts like Kenneth Setton, Franz Babinger (who also explained Biemmi's forgery, but still wrote: The standard modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero is Fan S. Noli ....
• because some users (like Gaius Claudius Nero himself) underlined their opinion about Noli's work:"Fan Noli is the main work on Skanderbeg"
• because Gaius Claudius Nero himself emphasized in the same comment opinion of Franz Babinger:" The standard modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero is Fan S. Noli"
• because Noli's work on Skanderbeg is frequently researched in works of many scholars
• it is frequently used by many users (including Gaius Claudius Nero) as source on wikipedia, especially in case of articles written about Skanderbeg (dozens of times in Skanderbeg article)

I think that based on the above presented arguments it is obvious that information about dissertation of Fan S. Noli is not "irrelevant to the subject" nor "completely unnecessary".

If you Gaius Claudius Nero and Aigest still believe that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is:

• "irrelevant to the subject" and
• "completely unnecessary"

please provide some arguments.

If you don't provide arguments for your claims that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is "irrelevant to the subject" and "completely unnecessary" within reasonable period of time, I will conclude that we reached consensus that Noli's dissertation on Skanderbeg is not irrelevant to the Noli nor completely unnecessary and based on such consensus I will return referenced information you removed from the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You can find critics on every work of every author. This article is about his life. You can use those critics in relevant talking pages eg Skanderbeg talk page. Aigest (talk) 14:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

It is completely the opposite. According to WP:NPOV we should present "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". There are plenty of biography articles which include criticism even the whole sections dedicated to it. Wikipedia:Criticism says "Negative criticism of a topic is acceptable material, and should be included in this encyclopedia". Informing the readers about the Noli's dissertation on Skanderbeg is not criticism.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

That argument belongs to Skanderbeg biography not to Noli biography, if you can't see the difference by yourself I can not tell you more Aigest (talk) 09:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It was Noli's dissertation and Noli's main work, not Skanderbeg's. Why would we hide information about Noli's main work, dissertation on Skanderbeg which was described by expert like Babinger as: "The standard modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero"? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It's funny how you watch me even when I am barely active. Nevertheless, I would have to agree with Aigest that this is irrelevant to the topic. Fan Noli played many roles, but his most conspicuous ones were as a politician and a clergyman. Including a discussion about criticisms of his dissertation is hardly encyclopedic.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing funny about your removal of well referenced information about dissertation of Noli I added to this article. You should apology to me for false accusation for Wikihounding. I don't watch you, I watch this page. Please don't accuse me for malice without any reason and don't delete my cited additions.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I find it interesting how you continually condemn yourself. The link for one who accuses others of malice defines itself as such: You often find yourself accusing or suspecting other editors of "suppressing information", "censorship" or "denying facts". You always accuse me of hiding information just like you did above (Why would we hide information about Noli's main work). Furthermore, just because a statement is cited doesn't mean it's relevant. In the same link that you gave me, I found support for my reversion of your edit ([2]).--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Please stop with your unjustified accusations. Information about Noli's dissertation which was described by great expert in the subject as his major work and standard biography of Skanderbeg is in fact covered by the link you provided: It is very important to place all critical material in the proper context, and ensure that an overall balanced view is provided. Since it is obvious that our discussion can not resolve our dispute I will proceed with other steps when I will have more time.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:32, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

To emphasize the flaws in Noli's dissertation -- without providing a source to support that these flaws were or have been a significant point of interest, or that they were a repeating theme throughout Noli's life -- would be a matter of undue weight; one could equally argue that, because Noli fled Albania to avoid execution, he was a "criminal" (because only criminals are sentenced, right?. To mention that Biemmi's work served as the (or 'a'? Would it have been Noli's sole source?) basis for Noli's dissertation is relevant in our article on Biemmi, and it would be equally relevant in our article on Noli's dissertation (if we had one, which we don't -- you're free to write it!).

That said, it's not unreasonable to mention that the subject of his dissertation was Skanderbeg, which I propose as a compromise: "In 1945, Fan S. Noli received a doctor's degree in history from Boston University, writing a dissertation on Skanderbeg". How many sources were there in the dissertation, and of those, how many were subsequently found to have been flawed, and to what extent did this affect the overall idea of the dissertation? Answer: it doesn't honestly matter within the context of this article, just like it doesn't honestly matter to talk about how, when Noli was eight years old, he was cruel to a younger child, or how even after he became a priest, he still had lustful thoughts about women. DS (talk) 15:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks DS. I will return the information about Noli's dissertation to the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:05, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Removal of the referenced assertion

There is an attempt to remove assertion referenced with work of Gregory C. Ference, historian who works for Salisbury University and who is specialized in "East Asian/East European history, Habsburgs". If there is any valid reason to remove this assertion it should be explained at this talk page. Until such explanation is given, this assertion will be restored. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

family background

Well, it happens quite a lot in Balkan topics that the same person can be found in different sources in a number of ethnicities. Fan Noli has just four different sources; others have much more (Mother Teresa for example). In order not to get into fringe theories, we should look up the reliability of these sources. It is clear that this article was POV-pushed in this part, as the Albanian 'posibility' of his ethnicity was not even written as a 'possibility' while a number of sources of course say he was Albanian. So, I had to add that. About the three other sources, I have to question their reliability.
1. Athene; we have no author at all, we have no idea if it is a fictional, non-fictionl, historic, or whatever kind of book.
2. Binder tells to us that Noli reputedly is of Vlach descent and just mentions him in a sentence, that goes on "and in the early years after World War II a number of Albanian Vlachs were elected to the ruling Communist Party's central committee. Tito's Yugoslavia also had a foreign minister, Koca Popovic, of Vlach ancestry, but he distanced himself from his wealthy origins and, indeed, the Yugoslav League of Communists did all it could to expropriate and marginalize previously prominent Vlach families.". It is clear that he himself does not base this alleged thesis on anything and thats why he says reputedly. Thus, I highly question this citation.

3. Naval Review. This one is easier, we all will agree I think that a book written in 1928, when even Noli was young, fails to meet WP:RS.

If in Balkans cases we are not careful in RS than every article would become rediculous. So, I guess, we would agree on this.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Sources No. 11 and 12 cannot be verified. The first, a book by a certain Brisku ([3] p. 34), referes to Theofan Noli as a "colourful Albanian political and intellectual figure", in the same sense that in the lead of this article Noli is "albanian-american", i.e. citizenship. The source does not refer to his ethnic background which is the subject of this particular paragraph of the article. The second note, by the well-known philo-albanian R. Elsie and co-operators, quotes that "It was from his family that Fan Noli received a sense of identity as an Albanian" but I could not find this in the book. Can someone indicate the exact page with this claim? Anyway, both references are not in the proper format (author, book, year, page ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylax30 (talk • contribs) 08:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The latter source (Elsie etc) is of the type "we are all Albanians". He claims that the bilingual (greek-albanian speakers) of Greece, known as "Arvanites" are "Albanians". Do we still consider this source as reliable? --Skylax30 (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

If Elsie is not reliable, then who is? :) He is an expert in Albanian studies Mondiad (talk) 18:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, USA and Britain are experts in producing "experts" on other people's history, nationality and politics. To remain in topic, I requested the quotation about Noli's family. It seems that Greek authors who are in better position to know the local affairs and languages (some may had met Noli personally), do not claim that they know much about his family. Untill someone (including Elsie) finds any family certificate stating that Noli's parents were Albanians, let us leave all sources equally presented, without question-marks. Maybe we can add something like "Sources are disagreeing ...". We have the case of an emerging personal national consciousness, possibly with some assistance from abroad.--Skylax30 (talk) 07:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

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Name written in local script

Since there is no doubt that the name Theofanis Stylianos Mavromatis is Greek (it's cited), which happens to be the birth name of the subject, it should be also presented in the original form in the way Fan Noli wrote it down (when he attended Greek education and while was a Greek teacher). Alexikoua (talk) 04:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

It just so happens that Noli was an ethnic Albanian therefore your addition is clearly undue and completely unnecessary. Refrain from making provocative edits again, thanks. Nishjan (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

So what? ethnic X doesn't mean that alternative name forms that have been extensively used are not allowed to be mentioned. You understand that your stubborn removal constitutes wp:IDONTLIKEIT and can lead to blocks.Alexikoua (talk) 02:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

This is English-language Wikipedia. If he was an ethnic Greek, then an addition of the spelling in Greek script would be fine, but since he is not, it actually serves no purpose. Imagine if we added everybody’s name in different scripts that they used, especially within the Balkans (Arabic, Greek, Cyrillic, Latin etc). Botushali (talk) 11:39, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

That's so unnecessary, seriously. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:54, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It's sourced, finally you agree on that, and correspondent scholarship finds it necessay indeed.Alexikoua (talk) 17:24, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Alexikoua, the script you want to add is really unnecessary, several editors oppose your addition. Also, it is clear what you are trying to achieve with that POV edit in the first sentence of the background section of this renowned Albanian figure. – Βατο (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

several editors oppose your addition? it appears you can not provide an argument why a 'historically' used script by the subject should not be mentioned in the article. Fan Noli signed under this name, that's sourced.

On the other hand I can name various occasions where ahistorical scripts are not only unnecessary but also ahistorical (modern Albanian name forms in 18th-19th Arvanite personalities for example).Alexikoua (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Cannot be compared. He is Albanian and so are Souliotes. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)