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The article states that Fan y Big is a subsidiary peak of Waun Rydd which it may be in the technical sense employed by mountain lists - but in no other sense is this peaky peak a subsidiary of the plateau-like Waun Rydd. It's not the only example of this approach being adopted where descriptions are dominated by a hierarchical listing mentality - it is a shame though! Geopersona (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Accent
editThe title omits the circumflex over the 'i' ('tô bach' in Welsh), but the body text retains it. The corresponding article on Welsh Wikipedia includes the accent in the title, but omits it in the body text - a curious state of affairs. All Ordnance Survey maps include the accent from the first 6" editions through to the modern day and the local pronunciation of the names supports the presence of the accent. Geopersona (talk) 19:55, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- In Welsh, monosyllabic words which contain the vowel 'i' are almost always long by default (cf. 'min', 'ffin', 'llin', 'trin', 'crin' and many, many more). Denoting such a long vowel in a monosyllabic word with a circumflex is an archaism. In fact, the only time a diacritic is used in such situations is to show a short vowel (cf. 'pin' [long] = pine (trees) vs 'pìn' [short] = 'a pin'). Moreover, the word in question - 'pig', in its unlenited form - is always long. Any Welsh-speaker can confirm this. In Welsh orthography, this mountain is named Fan y Big.
- Also, 'big' cannot be mistaken for anything other than the lenited form of 'pig' in Welsh because 'big' is not a lemma in the language: there is no ambiguity. 2A00:23C6:7C14:9801:2C62:E6AB:4B95:29F3 (talk) 15:19, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- Môn, Tâf, both have the to bach, as do words like tîn, tŷ, if its on the OS maps thats surely enough to prove thats the correct spelling. Articles often omit accents for ease. Ive only seen it on maps and signs with the circumflex. The grave and accute accents are much rarer, and are more likely to be omitted. I think the OS standard should be kept as its named after the Bîg river, which in Aberbeeg's name and article have the accent (both in the compound name and when referenced as a standalone river name Bîg). Jackass cooper (talk) 13:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- We technically shouldn't use Bîg if its commonly rendered Big in English, assuming based on the title. Wikipedia uses common names, not official/correct names, although if mixed use overall, willing to accept the likely correct use. The OS is merely just one source of many, and shouldn't automatically be regarded as the most authoritative source.
- Bîg river doesn’t have an article to base common use on. So if the accent is more common then it has to be proven, ideally through an RM, if controversial. DankJae 14:02, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Môn, Tâf, both have the to bach, as do words like tîn, tŷ, if its on the OS maps thats surely enough to prove thats the correct spelling. Articles often omit accents for ease. Ive only seen it on maps and signs with the circumflex. The grave and accute accents are much rarer, and are more likely to be omitted. I think the OS standard should be kept as its named after the Bîg river, which in Aberbeeg's name and article have the accent (both in the compound name and when referenced as a standalone river name Bîg). Jackass cooper (talk) 13:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
After doing some looking at what is the WP:COMMONNAME, I've found:
These use Fan y Big: Countryfile BBC Visit Wales National Trust Sky BGS Wales Online ITV Brecon & Radnor[1] CNN (including posts from the national park too using without an accent) County TimesMetroNine.auShropshire Star BBNP[2]
While these use Fan y Bîg: BBNP (but in another source above they used "Big") BMC Ordnance Survey
Finally, Natural Resources Wales, in this bilingual document intentionally uses "Fan y Bîg" (accent) in Welsh, and "Fan y Big" (no accent) in English. So possibly the accent is only used in Welsh.
We don't follow WP:OFFICIALNAMES, if Ordnance Survey is being argued as the "authority of names" (it officially isn't), and the overwhelming use of no accent shows WP:COMMONNAME, which takes priority in almost every case. I'll revert the adding of the accent under MOS:GEO and following the title, but it appears the accent is consistently used in Welsh so will add it as such. English is not phonetic, so the accent doesn't need to match the pronunciation.
It being named after the River Nant Big, doesn't matter, especially as OS doesn't use the accent for the river. Diolch. DankJae 20:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- What's all this about it being named after the Nant Big/Big river'? There is no such watercourse in the vicinity of this peak, Aberbeeg is miles away in the Valleys at - appropriately enough - the mouth of the diminutive Nant Big. Is 'big' (or in its unmutated form 'pig') in this case not either the Welsh for 'beak' (referencing the summit's shape) or else a cymricisation of the English 'peak'? I don't have my toponymic dictionary to hand presently. Geopersona (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Geopersona, agree, soon realised such a link seemed incorrect after commenting above, and removed it from this article. They are not anywhere close to each other. So whether one uses an accent or not is irrelevant to the other. DankJae 22:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Pronunciation of 'Fan'
editThis vowel here is [a], not [æ], both in the Welsh (this is a Welsh-language name) and English. [æ] = how an American would pronounce the 'a' in 'man' - nobody pronounces the 'Fan' in Pen y Fan like that - not in Wales, or indeed the rest of Britain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c6:7c14:9801:2c62:e6ab:4b95:29f3 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 29 December 2021 (UTC)