Talk:Farhud

Saatchi

Were the Saatchi brothers of Saatchi & Saatchi fame, Iraqi Jews expelled in this event?

During the progress of the event itself, no Jews were expelled. However, following the event, many jews who had the capability to do so, chose to leave. 80.179.69.194 (talk) 13:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This article

This article has a ridiculous focus on the Mufti of Jerusalem, who in fact played a minor role in this event. It also has plain errors of fact (eg. "charged with terrorism"). Until I can find time to fix it, this article gets a tag. --Zero 01:43, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Moreover, there was no "near complete expulsion" in 1951. --Zero 10:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Zero, it's been long time since you have commented out every single mention of al-Husayni from the article. Is this your idea of his "minor role"? ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:42, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually I didn't edit the article except to add a tag. Some mention of al-Husayni needs to go back, but the myth that he was the major instigator does not. --Zero 09:59, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

You are correct about the tag. Sorry, I should have doublechecked. In addition to Husayni's role, perhaps it makes sense to separate the Golden Square coup into its own article. History of Iraq doesn't mention it (nor British/German engagement there, nor Farhud) at all. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:21, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I'll have to take that back. There is Iraq coup (1941). ←Humus sapiens←ну? 10:23, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

The only pogrom in 2,500 years?

Ian, are you seriously going to argue that Farhud was the only pogrom from 5th century BCE until 1941? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You do understand the difference between "arguing" something and citing a claim in the literature? I reported accurately material published in the British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies. The Daly Telegraph article doesn't say anything about pogroms before this date; indeed it says "persecution was not out-and-out violence until shortly before the Farhud". --Ian Pitchford 20:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sourcing issues

the hebrew article, from which i've made the edits, is well-sourced, although the sources are in hebrew only. considering the dearth of sources on the subject, i doubt many good non-hebrew sources can be found. how can we proceed? while it is obvious that "no english sources means it never happened" is a bad policy, i still don't like the idea of having no english sources. should i copy the hebrew ones from hebrew wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.228.215 (talk) 17:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Need a reference for Facism as an international phenomenon in order to include information from this page

Hi – Could any of you give me the reference for the information in this article, “Between 1932 and 1941, the German embassy in Iraq, headed by Dr. Fritz Groebe, successfully promoted Nazi antisemitism and fascism among Egypt’s Arabs." I am trying to add countries from the Middle East to the pages on Facism as an international phenomenon, starting with Egypt, and have been challenged by Soman, who is calling the information fringe and racist, and challenging my references. So if any of you wrote that paragraph and can dig up the reference, I would be very grateful. Any other good references on the fascist movements in the Middle East would also be welcome. There is nothing on Iraq on Facism as an international phenomenon either, so I will try and put in the sub-title Iraq and link it to this page…--Cimicifugia (talk) 15:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)Cimicifugia

Just a slight correction, the article talks about Iraqi arabs and not egyptian arabs. now, i expect most material to be hebrew but maybe michael eppel or ester meir did publish some articles in english. MiS-Saath (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi - thanks for the correction. I could also use some advice on how to work in Wikipedia on issues of antisemitism. I have tried a couple of times to add good referenced material, each time to have it deleted immediately by people who are against having such information, in any form. I know many of you have walked this path before.

Is there a group on Antisemitism?

how do such groups work together, without breaking rules against canvasing? what is the most effective way to reach a postive consensus, when in most cases it seems to just be a one on one, head butting with no hope of agreement? --Cimicifugia (talk) 01:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Cimicifugia

Page move

Why was this page moved without discussion?

This event is known as the Farhud. I suggest moving the article back to where it belongs. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It does look better in the cat to have them listed all by date, but the event is commonly known as Farhud, so we don't have much choice. Chesdovi (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Moved it back for now. Move never agreed upon. "Baghdad" was even misspelled. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Removal of reliable source on Farhud

Dear Oncenawhile, you have recently performed an edit on Farhud article, tagging it as "clarifying, matching rest of article, removing non-RS source and oversimplification of catalyst". However, i must note your removed two sources, one of which is clearly a WP:RS (US Dept of State research division). Please self-revert as WP:GF.GreyShark (dibra) 16:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC) [Copied by Oncenawhile from user talk]

Hi Greyshark, the non-RS source I was referring to was at www.projetaladin.org. I have no issue with the US Dept of State source, but I removed the sentence it supports because the sentence was part of the oversimplification inherent in the paragraph that attempts to connect the Farhud directly to the exodus. The is a complex issue which needs to be treated carefully. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Part of the Holocaust?

Can anyone provide WP:RS supporting the statement in the infobox that the Farhud was "part of the Holocaust"?

Oncenawhile (talk) 22:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I just tried to find it myself, and came across an interesting answer. Bashkin writes:

As is to be expected, both Arab and Zionist national memories have silenced important aspects of the Farhud.... Zionist historiography... has highlighted the Farhud as a watershed in the history of the Iraqi-Jewish community. From the Zionist standpoint, the Farhud was the outcome of the anti-Semitism and Iraqi nationalist rhetoric in the 1930s. It was also viewed as having galvanized the Zionist movement in Iraq and ultimately as causing Iraq’s Jews to recognize that their country had rejected their attempts at integration and assimilation. In some Zionist circles, the event came to be understood as an extension of the European Holocaust into the Middle East. This connection is made manifest today by the archiving of certain documents relating to the Farhud in Yad Va-Shem, the Israeli Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem.

So describing the Farhud as part of the Holocaust represents POV.

Does anyone disagree with this? Oncenawhile (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how it can't be "a watershed in the history of the Iraqi-Jewish community" considering that it was kind of the beginning of the end of the Iraqi-Jewish community -- it was all downhill after that (at first slowly, then with accelerating speed)...

As for being part of the Holocaust, the 1941 Iraqi coup d'état was loosely influenced or inspired by Nazism (though also motivated by local concerns), and sought to link up to Axis military forces; however, the Farhud itself did not take place until the authority and power of the anti-British rebel leaders had essentially fallen apart, and was certainly not part of any long-range central plan. Different people can draw different conclusions based on these facts. AnonMoos (talk) 08:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Your first paragraph made me laugh out loud - it says the same thing three times! "I don't see how it can't be Colonel Mustard whodunnit, considering it was kind of Colonel Mustard whodunnit - it was all Colonel Mustard whodunnit"...

Oncenawhile (talk) 08:37, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Reason for the name?

Per Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Kurdistan#Farhud_-_a_Kurdish_word?, can anyone find a source explaining why this term is used? Oncenawhile (talk) 08:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Quotes in lead

User:Chesdovi, please could you explain this edit from 2010? The source you added ([1]) does not include one of the quotes you linked it to ("forgotten pogrom of the Holocaust"). Interestingly, the quote since turned up in a book written three years later, where the authors appear to have taken the two quotes together verbatim from your wikipedia edit..... Oncenawhile (talk) 17:38, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately an increasing number of authors, especially journalists, cite Wikipedia without acknowledgement. In this book a citation is given on the sentence, but the referenced article does not have it. It also doesn't have the word "pogrom" except in the names of works it cites. To place the Farhud in the Holocaust, something much better is needed. Zero^talk 06:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe this was the source? Chesdovi (talk) 13:03, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the quote should be attributed to Edwin Black who seems to have come up with the slogan, although it has since been repeated by others [2]. Chesdovi (talk) 13:13, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Earlier pogroms in Iraq?

Cohen and Shenhav both state they were not aware of any other pogroms in the history of Iraq's Jews.

However, we have an uncited sentence stating "There had been at least two earlier comparable pogroms in the modern history of Iraqi Jews, in Basra in 1776 and in Baghdad in 1828."

Can anyone source this?

Oncenawhile (talk) 07:36, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Judaica articles on those two cities don't mention either of these, so they can't have been too notable. In 1776 the Persians captured Basra after a siege; we need more than the death of some Jews, we need an action particularly against Jews. Zero^talk 08:32, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Needs better source

To editor Peaceray: You asked why I think a better source than this Daily Telegraph article is needed for "There were many instances of violence against Jews during their long history in Iraq.". That's easy. The article in question mostly consists of interviews with people of unknown expertise regarding modern times. The general reliability of Daily Telegraph means that we can trust that those interviews were reported fairly; it does not mean that the people interviewed gave a correct and balanced account. Also, the "long history [of Jews] in Iraq" is an interval spanning thousands of years, yet the only mention of something before the 19th century is a claim about Ottoman times by a "65-year-old business consultant". On this topic there are a very large number of serious works by historians, so there is really no excuse for relying on a collection of amateur anecdotes for such a general statement. Zero^talk 23:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I have added {{Unreliable source?|reason=Please see Talk:Farhud#Needs better source|date=December 2023}} to the statement in Farhud#Iraq's Jewish Community.

I have two questions about your comment here:

1. Should we then change the statement to something like There were instances of violence against Jews during the 19th century. to better reflect the time period?
2. You mentioned On this topic there are a very large number of serious works by historians. Are there any that document a history of violence against Jews in Iraq? If so, would you please list them here.

Peaceray (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Rachel Wahba

Rachel Wahba has written extensively about her mother's traumatic experience during the Farhud. There may be some things in her writings to include in the article, or perhaps a mention of them. Peaceray (talk) 20:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)