Talk:Febrile seizure

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2020 and 31 January 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MelanieBui, Cdodson1. Peer reviewers: Rjbustami.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Revert

I reverted this article all the way back to the version by Waellll111 at 04:40, 21 September 2010. The edit by Jamhour-njitwill at 18:55, 23 November 2010 somehow messed up most of the formatting for references, and the problem was never corrected after that. Also, I don't think that the information added in that revision is entirely appropriate for this article—it's a little bit off-topic, and seems to be more of a "how-to" than encyclopedic content. While I'm sure Jamhour-njitwill's intention was to be helpful, I don't think these problems can be easily corrected at this point without reverting the article. It also doesn't appear that much, if any, information has been added since then, so a revert seems appropriate. —Guido del Confuso (talk) 01:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

cause

OMIM, Inherited Neuronal Ion Channelopathies: New Windows on Complex Neurological Diseases <-- discussion of sodium channel mutations that have been associated with febrile seizures. --JWSchmidt (talk) 21:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Not significant?

"Simple febrile seizures do not cause permanent brain injury; do not tend to recur frequently (children tend to outgrow them); and do not make the development of adult epilepsy significantly more likely (about 3–5%), compared with the general public (1%)."

How is 3-5% not significantly more than 1% ??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.153.95.138 (talk) 16:00, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not significantly more because of the way statistics work, especially in medicine. 2-4% more is not that much, considering the variables involved - geographic area, underlying illness, type of seizure (simple vs complex), other associated neurological problems, type of study, patient compliance, and so on. For example, a lot of parents won't report all seizures once they're assured that febrile seizures are benign in general. Besides, few studies have followed enough people from childhood until adulthood to prove the correlation between febrile seizures and epilepsy. This is quite difficult, as people might change residence, might go see other doctors for later epilepsy evaluation, and so on. Thus, that increase of 3-5% is quite questionable as it is. It would be relevant if it was more than 10%, but that's just my opinion... after I've read dozens of studies on this matter. 109.102.32.73 (talk) 01:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, statistics is a bit of a bugger for the outliers. Personally I suffered from what was diagnosed as febrile convulsions (the doctors where certain it was not epilepsy) regularly as a kid, but this included my heart often stopping and requiring resuscitation, often at a hospital. Whilst I do not have epilepsy as an adult, my episodic long term memory was damaged. No recall of the majority of my life pre-14 years old (I stopped having these "fits" at about 11 years), and my memory of events after that is spotty at best.109.147.198.166 (talk) 01:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

gastroenteritis

recent studies have shown that gastroenteritis is in fact not normally associated with febrile seizures, as in only a very small percent (around 5-7%) of patients presented with FS with underlying GE. I'd rather remove GE or rephrase "normally precipitated by a recent upper respiratory tract infection or gastroenteritis" - there are other causes, upper respiratory tract infections being at around 74%. For example, otitis media is also 7% but I don't see it here. I won't modify myself right now, but when I finish studying this subject I will do so and add my sources too. Meanwhile, this article needs revision badly. 109.102.32.73 (talk) 21:15, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

also - I've found quite a lot of studies that revealed that febrile seizures are more frequent between 3 months and 5 years (not 6m-6y), the limits being 1 month and 6 years (though rarely after the age of 5 years, and when they are present it's usually in their complex, not simple form, associated with other neurological affections). I'm not going to modify this just yet, as there are as many opinions as there are authors, and I've not yet finished my own study. 109.102.32.73 (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Multiple errors

Due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmh649 's vendetta against the non-profit's http://febrileseizures.org.uk/ contributions to the page it now exists with multiple factual inaccuracies. Suggest someone overrules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmh649 and undoes his changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.7.37.5 (talk) 15:34, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

As you have been told several times by DocJames (user Jmh649) and others on your own Talk page, on DocJames' Talk page and now here on the article's Talk page, Wikipedia has fairly rigorous sourcing requirements which must be met. Primary studies are frowned upon, reviews of several studies are secondary sources, which are much preferred. Certain other types of sources, such as good, recent textbooks, are acceptable for certain types of claims; you've been referred to the pertinent policies and guidelines.

But you keep insisting on using a source with no authority. There are many not-for-profit patient advocacy organisations with excellent information on their websites. Those sites, themselves, are not reliable sources for Wikipedia articles. The people who maintain those websites can be ideal editors for Wikipedia, as they usually keep up with the scientific literature and thus can cite good sources correctly. If there are "multiple factual inaccuracies" in this article, I hope someone in your organisation will correct them, citing good sources!

BTW, please sign your own comments by clicking on the pencil icon at the top of the edit box. Thank you, Hordaland (talk) 18:45, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually this user has added inaccuracies to Wikipedia with a ref to their website such as in this edit [1] "Fever prevention is the logical and best treatment." Not only that but their website contains advertising to some none evidence based alt med. [2]

We have a 2012 Cochrane review that refutes this IPs website [3] "No clinically important benefits for children with febrile seizures were found for intermittent oral diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbitone, intermittent rectal diazepam, valproate, pyridoxine, intermittent phenobarbitone or intermittent ibuprofen, nor for diclofenac versus placebo followed by ibuprofen, acetominophen or placebo. Adverse effects were reported in up to 30% of children." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

We have 'slept on it' for a week now and our strong objections to Doc James edits still stand. He is cherry picking articles to support his agenda leaving the page factually inaccurate in multiple places. Personally, we pity your patients for the misguided advise you will give them and more broadly for the misinformation this page now presents. And before you ask us again to fix the page we have better things to do than to case-by-case refute your pages inaccuracies. Alas wikipedia has shown itself to yet again be a cabal of the ill-informed. In summary, for the record, our organisation categorically refutes the information on this page.

Inaccuracies

Please point out any inaccuracies you see and we can fix them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

We have 'slept on it' for a week now and our strong objections to Doc James edits still stand. He is cherry picking articles to support his agenda leaving the page factually inaccurate in multiple places. Personally, we pity your patients for the misguided advise you will give them and more broadly for the misinformation this page now presents. And before you ask us again to fix the page we have better things to do than to case-by-case refute your pages inaccuracies. Alas wikipedia has shown itself to yet again be a cabal of the ill-informed. In summary, for the record, our organisation categorically refutes the information on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.7.37.5 (talk) 08:26, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes if you are unable to state what is wrong. It is difficult for us to address issues. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:10, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Our statement here

http://febrileseizures.org.uk/forums/topic/wikipedias-factual-inaccuracies/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.7.37.5 (talk) 09:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Will keep an eye on that page. If you can define what is wrong with Wikipedia's content using proper sources than we can correct it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

How many types?

The second paragraph of the lead section states, "There are two types of febrile seizures: simple febrile seizures and complex febrile seizures", but the subsubsection 3.1, "Types" lists three types. I'm going to guess that there are three types, but shouldn't the lead section be changed to suit? Wocky (talk) 05:14, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine, Winter 2020

Hey there, my name is Charlene Dodson, a 4th year medical student. As part of the WikiMed project, I will be reviewing and editing the Febrile Seizure page. I will be working on a team with another 4th year medical student. In addition to adding citations throughout the page, my plan will consist of improving the following sections:

Prevention) 1. Reviewing the cited article (reference #12) to ensure the information provided is accurate. 2. Be specific as possible with the word “recurrent” in order to provide more detailed information on the number of febrile seizures needed before antiepileptics are warranted.

Treatment) 1. The current treatment paragraph is more of a “how to treat a seizure while its occurring”, I will be adding the current guidelines of treatments as far as medications for seizures. 2. I will also be adding more information in terms of length of seizure before a benzodiazepine should be administered. 3. Add the complication of not giving a benzodiazepam for a prolonged seizure. 4. Add that rectal diazepam can be given if an intravenous route is not available.

Prognosis) 1. Verify the second sentence (40% statistic of having a second seizure) as it conflicts with the last sentence in the lead section (15-70% chance). 2. Add a citation where “citation needed” is written.

Epidemiology) 1. Move the statistics from the lead section to the epidemiology section. 2. Verify and update as needed the 2 current statistics. 3. Add relevant information if available if certain races, ethnicities, areas, or climates affect the incidence of febrile seizures.Cdodson1 (talk) 16:08, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Why should statistics not be in the lead?

Hi User:Doc James, thanks for your question. We are not saying that statistics should not be in the lead section, we just felt that after a nice, broad overview, the section became detailed and inundated with numbers right at the end. Our main concern was that some of the statistics listed in the lead section were not consistent with statements made later in the article, so we wanted to update the numbers with newer sources and place them appropriately in the article for better consistency. MelanieBui (talk) 05:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

User:MelanieBui the text was "Febrile seizures affect two to five percent of children before the age of five. They are more common in boys than girls."

Are you saying the frequency of seizures has changed? Or that the frequency is boys versus girls is no longer true? There is one thing to update old references with new ones, or moving old stuff that is incorrect but I am not sure it applies to either of these two statements. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:09, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

User:Doc James No, we're not trying to change any numbers if they're accurate. We just wanted to verify with more recent literature that the facts listed were consistent. The main text I was curious about looking into was "After a single febrile seizure there is a 15 to 70% chance of another one" since it's such a broad range, so we will keep looking to verify with other sources. Thanks. MelanieBui (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

These sorts of broad ranges are not that uncommon in medicine with different study populations and designs. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Iron studies

User:Cdodson1 Which ref says "Iron studies should be performed as well"? And can you support the specific text that says this? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Other refs says something different "Plasma ferritin studies should be obtained as well, as there is an increased risk of febrile seizures in children with iron deficiency anemia." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

User:Cdodson1 wondering if you say this message? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi, User:DocJames yes, I did see the message. Thank you for your comment. I posted an article that states IDA can increase FS and plasma ferritin studies should be obtained. Kwak, Byung Ok; Kim, Kyungmin; Kim, Soo-Nyung; Lee, Ran (November 2017). "Relationship between iron deficiency anemia and febrile seizures in children: A systematic review and meta-analysis". Seizure. 52: 27–34. doi:10.1016/j.seizure.2017.09.009. ISSN 1532-2688. PMID 28957722. Cdodson1 (talk) 14:54, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

References

WikiProject Medicine Winter 2020

I am a 4th year medical student that will be completing a WikiProject Medicine elective over the next 4 weeks. The goal of this elective is to improve a medical article with updated and accurate information using reputable resources. I will be working on a team with a fellow 4th year student. We are new to editing Wikipedia, so any feedback and advice is appreciated to make sure we adhere to the Wikipedia standards. Below are my specific goals for improving this article:

Overall: There are a good number of statements without citations that I would like to try and improve. I also feel like there is one reference that is predominately cited, so I hope to find other sources during my literature review to help verify the current information stated. Overall, I would like to expand on and improve the content in each section. I am also considering adding a mechanism section after causes to explain the pathophysiology behind febrile seizures. If an appropriate image can be found, I will try to improve the graphics on the page.

Lead Section: I would like to improve the lead section and remove any discrepancies (i.e. lead section lists 2 types of febrile seizures but diagnosis section lists 3 types). I would like to make the lead section a better overview and think that the statistics towards the end can be updated and placed in other sections.

Signs and Symptoms: I would like to expand on this section and improve the formatting. I would like to improve the citations and possibly add a “complications” subsection if good information is found during my literature review.

Causes: I would like to make sure the information listed under causes is up to date and neutral. I think better sources are needed to back up the risk factors listed, especially the statements about vaccines. I would like to try and quantify what a “small chance” of febrile seizures after vaccination means. The genetic associations can be better explained as there is only 1 line that briefly mentions genetics and then a random table of genes.

Diagnosis: I would like to improve the citations in this section. The types/classifications need clarified to match what is written in the lead section. I think there is room for improvement to explain the criteria for diagnosis, how a diagnosis is reached, and what the differential diagnoses are. MelanieBui (talk) 16:17, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

User:MelanieBui when the body and lead contradict each other, it is more often that the body is incorrect and needs updating. With respect to the types of febrile seizures, there are two and the third one listed was actually a subtype of complex febrile seizures per the ref listed. Have corrected.

The lead is a summary of the topic in question, and ideally a summary of the body of the article. Often the body needs to be improved rather than the lead necessarily trimmed. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:17, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Updated one of the refs in the lead. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:23, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

User:Doc James Thanks. I was planning to add the subtype to the "Signs and Symptoms" section and remove the "Types" subsection from Diagnosis, but I had not gotten to it yet.

My goal is to update the body of the article with my colleague to make sure the information is up to date and robust, and from there tweak the lead as needed, so I'll keep that in mind when editing. MelanieBui (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Yah I am not sure were types best fit. Might be better under diagnosis as that is when the types become meaningful. The symptoms initially of both types are the same. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Reference

Can you two explain why you do not like this reference?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26844730

Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:49, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi User:Doc James. Nothing wrong with the article. Somehow the reference wasn't showing up at the bottom of the page and was giving us an error. We weren't able to see which article it was and was just trying to fix the error. Thank you for fixing it! MelanieBui (talk) 20:26, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Peer Review for the WikiProject Medicine Course during Winter 2020 at UCF COM by Rami Bustami

- I enjoy that there is a clear attempt to reference almost every sentence, sometimes even multiple sources per sentence.

- The language is clearly written and understandable to the average reader

- There is excellent expression of differing opinions on certain matters, such as whether or not the rate of increase of temperature influences the incidence of febrile seizures, without taking either side and providing effective references. I would, however, remove the sentence about the "latter point has not been proven" as this is inferred by the differing of opinions and may be construed as "picking a side."

- I particularly enjoy the chart comparing simple vs complex febrile seizures

Suggestions:

- In the end of the first paragraph, it is mentioned briefly that there are simple and complex seizures, but a complex seizure is never defined here. A short definition after the definition of simple febrile seizure would fit well.

- Just a syntax suggestion: "it is thought to involve genetics, THE ENVIRONMENT*, brain immaturity..."

- In the last sentence of the first section, I would re-word the 2% epilepsy statement to be more clear. Do 2% of febrile seizure patients go on to have epilepsy? Or 2% more than the general population?

- Perhaps, as a subsection under Diagnosis, you can include a differential diagnosis. The audience that is reading might want to know what other causes of seizures commonly occur in babies if febrile seizure is not the cause. You touch on this with meningitis and encephalitis, but the list could be separately designated and more thorough. It would be important, though, to emphasize that febrile seizures are the most common type of seizure to avoid instilling anxiety in parents.

- I made some minor edits for grammar and syntax, please see if you agree with these changes --Rjbustami (talk) 00:38, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi, User:Rjbustami. Thank you for your feedback on the work we put into the article. I will look into your suggestions and try to make some of the changes to add to the article and clarify points accordingly. Thank you for also making some edits yourself! MelanieBui (talk) 19:27, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Using the best sources for medical content

Hi @Cdodson1 and MelanieBui: when editing medical topics on Wikipedia, please ensure that you are only using the highest quality sources. I saw in the history with this edit that one of your references was removed for being low quality. The International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health is part of the MDPI publishing group which is considered a source of questionable quality on Wikipedia. For more information about this, see the specific policy about predatory journals for medical content. Thanks, Elysia (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi User:Elysia (Wiki Ed). Thank you for sharing this information with us. It is very helpful. MelanieBui (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2020 (UTC)