Talk:February 2009 North American storm complex

Lone Grove Track Length

I found a source from NWS Norman stating the approximate track length of the Lone Grove tornado. http://www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/wxevents/20090210/tornadotable.php --Bigphishy56 (talk) 13:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Todo

• Expand the lead.
• Try to avoid excessive sourcing, if possible
• Include the Northeast U.S. precipitation in the non-tornadic events section.

–Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 19:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

You know things are good when people bring up excessive sourcing. I haven't seen that type of comment in ages. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 23:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Something is missing here

First, good news. It is a well-referenced article with no stubby sections. However, I'm having problems with the non-tornadic events section, which seems to be missing a section/paragraph which explains the cause of the non-tornadic (severe?) events themselves. If these events are due to a squall line, explain the motion/movement of the squall line which caused this damage. If it was merely due to gradient winds from a strong extratropical cyclone, say so. Either way, the non-tornadic events don't seem to be listed in sequence, and they jump around the eastern United States haphazardly. Thegreatdr (talk) 12:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

That might be useful ;) I'll see what I can do later today in regards to the cause of the winds. As for the jumping around states, what order should they be put in? Cyclonebiskit 15:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Since we're dealing with a system in the westerlies, from west to east is likely the best option. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've attempted to make a reasonable summary of the cause of the winds and some feedback on it would be helpful. Cyclonebiskit 22:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Much better. When you say "a bow echo north of the squall line," do you mean on the northern portion of the squall line? It would be rare indeed if a severe thunderstorm formed in the immediate wake of a squall line, where the atmosphere is a bit more stable. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add that you should WebCite the severe thunderstorm/tornado watch pages from the NWS, because they will disappear after the year. Showtime2009 (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Really? I thought since they're archived I wouldn't have to webcite them. Cyclonebiskit 00:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah; for example, this year's watch #0021 will be replaced by next year's watch #0021. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 00:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't, it says there's a no cache tag on it. I'll just replace them with the yearly archived watches in January. Cyclonebiskit 01:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, they do archive them, so you do not have to webcite them. my apologies. Showtime2009 (talk) 01:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I've taken a shot at reorganizing the non-tornadic events section per your suggestion DR. To make it easier, I'll just list the order they're in here to see if it sounds right. Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Alabama, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, West Virginia, Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. Cyclonebiskit 15:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

That sounds good. Thegreatdr (talk) 15:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

How much information should there be for each state? Texas almost has its own paragraph while Indiana and Illinois share a short sentence. Cyclonebiskit 15:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

info

There is too much info regarding some of these tornadoes. We dont need to know what its wind speed or if it was recorded by a tv station or how much it cost. Can we not stick to what was damaged? Showtime2009 (talk) 18:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I put the edmond tornado into a separate section because of that at first but since I couldn't find much more, it didn't really warrant a section but I'm quite confused as to why we can't have a full summary on all the tornadoes in the outbreak and not just the most significant ones. Although they might not kill anyone, they do cause some damage and the people they affect might regard them as the worst tornado they've ever experienced. I'll put the Edmond tornado into its own section again if more information presents itself, otherwise it's probably best to keep it where it is. All in all, in my opinion, it's best to fully cover the subject instead of skimping out on details. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

You might as well give it its own section again. There is once again too much information for the infobox and now it looks disproportionate. Not to mention too many sources. Again we just need damage info and not other stuff. Showtime2009 (talk) 19:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Giving an overview of the tornado, IMO, is helpful, rather than just saying "Tornado X destroyed Y". Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Then you might as well just give it its own section back. The infoboxes have always been used to state the damage and nothing else. Showtime2009 (talk) 01:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Given the lack of a response from Cyclonebiskit, I will condense parts of this article in the near future. Showtime2009 (talk) 22:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to respond here. I very much disagree with removing useful information from this article to make it "what you think the article should be". The article should fully cover the subject and not skimp out on details. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 23:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Alright then, we'll keep it the way it is then. Showtime2009 (talk) 01:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Table

Since all the information is now in, the table should probably look something like this. Thoughts?

Tuesday, February 10, 2009
EF#	Location	County/ Parish	Coord.	Time (UTC)	Path length	Damage
Oklahoma
EF1	NNW of Wiley Post Airport	Oklahoma	35°33′N 97°38′W	2036	0.75 miles (1.2 km)	The first tornado of the outbreak touched down around 2:36 pm CST near Oklahoma City. The 75 yd (69 m) wide tornado tracked for 0.75 miles (1.21 km), damaging several businesses and homes. Two shopping centers were closed for several days due to the severity of the impact. The wall of one restaurant was partially destroyed and a piece of plywood from a small retail building was thrown into the wall of the restaurant. After tracking through mostly rural areas, the tornado lifted around 2:37 pm CST about 2 miles (3.2 km) north-northeast of Wiley Post Airport. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $1 million.
EF2	WNW of Edmond	Oklahoma, Logan	35°39′N 97°31′W	2053	6.5 miles (10.5 km)	The second tornado to touch down during the outbreak formed at around 2:52 pm CST (2052 UTC) about 3 miles (5 km) north-northwest of Edmond, Oklahoma. The tornado, which its formation was captured live via KOCO-TV's Sky 5 camera, traveled towards the northeast for about 6.5 miles (10 km), crossing into Logan County and dissipating at 3:05 pm CST (2105 UTC). Following a survey by the National Weather Service, the tornado was estimated to have been about 75 yards (70 m) wide and was rated as an EF2. Most of the downtown residences were left without power as the tornado struck the area around 2:59 pm CST (2059 UTC). Ten minutes earlier, tornado sirens were sounded as a tornado warning was issued for the area. Students who were being taken home by bus at the time were immediately taken to the nearest school for shelter. The schools were placed in lockdown for about two hours following the tornado sirens. In Edmond, six homes were destroyed, eight structures received major damage, 51 received minor damage and another 166 structures were affected. Some of the homes damaged by the tornado were estimated to be worth over $1 million. The Oak Tree Golf Club sustained severe damage, with numerous trees being uprooted. Hundreds of trees were uprooted or significantly damaged along the tornado's path. In Oklahoma County, the tornado left an estimated 28,500 people without power. Damages were $1.7 million.
EF1	NW of Meridian	Logan	35°51′N 97°16′W	2124	1 mile (1.6 km)	Two homes were damaged, including one that completely lost its roof. It was on the ground for two minutes. Post-storm analysis indicated that the tornado reached EF1 intensity.
EF1	WSW of Perkins	Payne	35°57′N 97°10′W	2139	10 miles (16 km)	Long lived tornado destroyed a barn and an oilfield communications tower. Numerous power lines were downed, leaving 1,586 customers without power in Payne county. Most of the outages were around Oklahoma State Highway 33. Post-storm analysis indicated that the tornado reached EF1 intensity.
EF0	SSW of Pawnee	Pawnee	36°17′N 96°49′W	2235	3 miles (4.8 km)	Two barns completely destroyed. Debris scattering seems to be consistent with damage caused by a tornado. Four cows were lost and presumed dead due to the tornado.
EF4	SE of Grady	Jefferson, Love, Carter,	33°57′N 97°35′W	0048	45 miles (72 km)	8 deaths—See section on this tornado
Texas
EF0	SSW of Belcherville	Montague	33°47′N 97°49′W	0025	100 yards (91 m)	One house suffered roof damage. Debris blew down a back door and permitted debris to enter the house. Two trees were toppled and a shed was destroyed. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $20,000.
EF1	Spanish Fort area	Montague	33°55′N 97°37′W	0045	2 miles (3 km)	Multi-vortex tornado snapped numerous large trees, some up to 30 inches in diameter. Winds within the tornado were estimated at 95 to 100 miles per hour (153 to 161 km/h). Eye-witnesses of the tornado reported that it crossed the Red River, tracking into Oklahoma; however, the post-storm survey did not confirm this.
EF1	SSW of Grapevine Southlake Airport	Tarrant	32°54′N 97°08′W	0315	1 mile (2 km)	A brief tornado, lasting roughly two minutes, caused significant damage to five homes and minor damage to 15 others. The maximum width of the tornado was estimated to be 100 yd (91 m) with winds up to 90 miles per hour (140 km/h). Damages from the tornado were estimated at $750,000.
EF1	NNE of Garden Valley	Smith, Wood	32°34′N 95°30′W	0516	7 miles (11 km)	A barn was destroyed and several metal buildings were damaged or destroyed northwest of Lindale. Several homes sustained roof damage near Mineola. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $300,000.
Missouri
EF1	ENE of Battlefield	Greene	37°07′N 93°20′W	0443	5 miles (8 km)	Tornado tracked across the southern end of Springfield. About two dozen houses and businesses were damaged, and several trees and power lines were knocked over, leaving 250 residences without power. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $350,000.
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
Louisiana
EF1	Kolter area	De Soto	32°09′N 93°56′W	0704	2 miles (3.2 km)	A metal barn was destroyed and part of the frame was removed from the ground. Many trees were damaged. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $150,000.
Tennessee
EF1	SW of Camp Ground	Fentress	36°09′N 85°04′W	1905	1 mile (1.6 km)	One person was injured when the tornado pinned him under his car. Up to 50 trees were downed. The tornado was on the ground for about a minute and was up to 75 yards wide. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $50,000.
Indiana
EF1	SW of Medford	Delaware	40°06′N 85°19′W	2030	0.2 miles (0.3 km)	A 100 foot wide tornado briefly touched down near Muncie. Winds estimated at 100 miles per hour (160 km/h) destroyed one barn and tore the roof off of a house. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $13,000. The tornado traveled for 0.2 miles (0.3 km).
Virginia
EF0	NE of Coulwood	Russell	36°59′N 82°03′W	2259	4 miles (6.4 km)	A roof was damaged and several trees were knocked over. Damages from the tornado were estimated at $30,000.
Sources:NCDC Database

C/P'd this table into the article, thanks for fixing it up. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh I made an error. Because the stats for the Lone Grove tornado show it only going through three counties, i forgot to revise the path length. It should be 35 miles.

Also regarding text in the article about the tornado ending at 8:00. It should be revised to note that it ended at 7:43 and probably the image of the preliminary track should be removed.[1] Showtime2009 (talk) 08:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

References

bad references

The following references do not support the claims in this articule. Can someone check/update/remove them? Matthew C. Clarke 01:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

• <ref>{{cite web|first=Stuart|last=Hinson|publisher=National Climatic Data Center|year=2009|accessdate=June 3, 2009|title=Mississippi Event Report: Strong Winds|url=http://www4.ncdc.noaa.gov/cgi-win/wwcgi.dll?wwevent~ShowEvent~749709}}</ref>
• <ref>{{cite web|first=Stuart|last=Hinson|publisher=National Climatic Data Center|year=2009|accessdate=June 3, 2009|title=Mississippi Event Report: Strong Winds|url=http://www4.ncdc.noaa.gov/cgi-win/wwcgi.dll?wwevent~ShowEvent~749285}}</ref>

Alt text review

I was asked to review this article's alt text. It looks pretty good; I particularly liked the description of the tornado. However, the last two maps need work. Alt text for a map should convey the gist of the useful information conveyed by the map, rather than focus on unimportant details such as the false colors used (please see WP:ALT#Maps). So, the alt text for File:Tornado Watch 10 2009.gif should focus on that strikingly intense straight line of thunderstorms running north-northeast from San Antonio to southwest Missouri, and the alt text for File:02102009 1.radarloop Mineola tornado.gif should cover the striking pattern of an amorphous region moving west and a bit north through the map. Since neither map has a legend that says "thunderstorm" the alt text should not say "thunderstorm"; instead, that sort of interpretation should be in the caption (please see WP:ALT#Verifiability). Eubulides (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The alt text for the two maps looks better now; I tweaked the latter. Eubulides (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Peer review comments

Ruhrfisch comments: I will review this as I would at FAC, here are some suggestions for improvement.

• First some general comments - there are several places where units need to be converted to metric - for example in the lead there is ... causing wind and water damage, and dumping six inches of snow in central and eastern Massachusetts. or in the Long Grove tornado section there is Two of the victims, the parents of a 13-year old girl, were killed when the tornado picked the three of them out of their home and threw them 400 feet.[57] as well as One mobile home was thrown 100 yards from its foundation.[51] (This is not a complete list)
  •  Doing... Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 14:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• Another thing that FAC requires is that all the little details are taken care of and things to be done consistently. So for example in the Spanish Fort area tornado in the table, miles per hour is spelled out Winds within the tornado were estimated at 95 to 100 miles per hour (153 to 160 km/h). but the rest of the article uses mph (for example the very mext tornado in the table The maximum width of the tornado was estimated to be 100 yd (91 m) with winds up to 90 mph (140 km/h).
  •  Doing... Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 14:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• This might be a WikiProject guideline, but the WP:MOS#Units_of_measurement says In the main text, give the main units as words and use unit symbols or abbreviations for conversions in round brackets....However, where there is consensus to do so, the main units may also be abbreviated in the main text after the first occurrence.
• Is it "mid-west" as in This squall line continued to renew its energy as it passed through the mid-west, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and New England,... or "Midwest" as in The warning included parts of the Deep South, Ohio Valley, Midwest, and Appalachians.
  •  Done Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 14:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• The article covers a lot of geography and there are places where it would help to be clearer which state is being discussed. For example in the Storm development section, the paragraph on the Lone Grove tornado never says it was in Oklahoma. I know it says the state in the lead, but here the previous paragraph ends with tornados in three states In addition to the five Oklahoma tornadoes, three tornadoes struck northern sections of Texas and one tornado hit Springfield, Missouri.[6][7] then follows this with the somewhat vague paragraph starting The most significant tornado, eventually called the Lone Grove Tornado, first touched down in southeast Jefferson County at 6:48 pm CST (00:48 UTC) near the Red River.[5]
  •  Done I think Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 21:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
• The external link checker shows several dead links.
  • Irreplaceable links tagged and replaceable replaced, so  Done. Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 22:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
• The language is not bad, but it tends to be a little choppy and it doesn't flow as well as it could in many places. I will pick one paragraph as an example.

The tornado left devastation across a swath over a half-mile wide. Buildings were reportedly thrown off their slabs and the local chamber of commerce office was flattened. A furniture store and two mobile home parks were also destroyed.[45] One of the mobile home parks contained 40 homes, leaving close to 100 people homeless.[49][50] One mobile home was thrown 100 yards from its foundation.[51] The glass lobby of the UPS building was shattered.[45][49] A total of 114 residences were destroyed by the tornado in Lone Grove.[52]

• • First sentence - needs conversion factor for half-mile. Also the length of the tornado's path (35 miles (56 km)) is given two paragraphs previously. These two pieces of information seem to me like they belong together. For the rest of the paragraph - it is often useful to go from the general to the specific. If that were the case, I think I would start with the 114 residences destroyed in Lone Grove, then give specifics. The next item could probably be the two mobile home parks destroyed, one of which contained 40 homes and left 100 homeless. Then the mobile home being thrown 100 yards (spell out and conversion needed) could be next (most specific). A nice transition to the next part might be the sentence Buildings were reportedly thrown off their slabs and the local chamber of commerce office was flattened. I might say something like "Throughout Lone Grove buildings were thrown off their slabs; the local chamber of commerce office was flattened. instead. Then the commercial damage could follow - I think I would take the furniture store out of the mobile home parks sentence and put it with other commerical items.
• Another place where this approcach would help is in the Aftermath section - part of this is also providing context for the reader - see WP:PCR. So for example in this part of the section A concert featuring Chris Cagle and other local musicians at Heritage Hall in Ardmore raised over $18,000 to benefit Carter County tornado victims.[133][134] Another concert set up by the Salvation Army raised $2,300 more for victims.[134] The Department of Homeland Security offered to assist with the reconstruction of homes and businesses and to support those who were left homeless. President Barack Obama passed along his condolences and best wishes to the victims of the tornado.[127] the first sentence's sources date it to March 13-16, well after the tornado. The second sentence is March 16. The next two sentences are February 11. I can see grouping the federal repsonses together in a paragraph, or doing it chronologically, but this way makes little sense to me.
• When I looked at current ref 127 to see the date, I read it. The article says tornado warnings were issued 35 minutes ahead of the tornado in Lone Grove and that people did not seek shleter, perhaps why at least some of the fatalities occurred. I did not see this in the article, but it seems worthy of inclusion.
• I would get a copyedit - there are volunteers at WP:PR/V that will help with this.

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:April 1880 tornado outbreak which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 30 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 22:49, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

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Tornado outbreak of February 10–11, 2009 → February 2009 North American storm complex – The non tornado effects have about as much coverage in the article as the tornadic ones, and same for impact. This is a more neutral title that recognizes both equally. 69.118.232.58 (talk) 14:28, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Reassessment

February 2009 North American storm complex

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: If the only question is over a subsection heading, I think this can be kept. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

This mostly has to do with updating refs and removing dead ones, but there are also WAY too many sections with too many paragraph breaks. There are also points where it is overly detailed. ChessEric 21:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

You'll have to bear with me on this as it may take some time to get things up to par. I wrote this almost 14 years ago when I was in a phase of including minute details so it hasn't aged well. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:28, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

LOL! It's alright. We all aren't that good in the beginning and I for one, as you've seen with my recent tornado summaries, have trouble with being too detail-oriented. ChessEric 12:00, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@Cyclonebiskit: Make sure that if you're going to combine tables, please make sure it doesn't mess up the entries on the list page. ChessEric 20:33, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Cyclonebiskit and ChessEric: where do you feel this article stands now in relation to the GA criteria? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:49, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I think that its gotten WAY better. The only question I have is why the impacts from Texas to Louisiana being called West South Central states. ChessEric 16:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.