Talk:Felix Sater/Archives/2018

Sourcing controversial information to The Stern Facts

To the anon and/or User:144REL144 who has inserted and reinserted[1] stuff about an alleged bar fight from The Stern Facts, aka thesternfacts.com (domain registered to Grant Stern/Morningside Mortgage Corporation [2][3]). It doesn't look like the best source we can use, WP:BLPSOURCES. If these things actually happened shouldn't they be in mainstream newspapers with editorial control and such? Rather than what appears to be one real estate guy's blog? ☆ Bri (talk) 15:18, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

This post lacks a factual basis. There is no "alleged bar fight" but rather a court appellate record documenting an assault by Felix Sater against a person he met that night. "Controversial information" via a video of a mainstream news broadcast and a court filing?

Preposterous.

Do not try shooting the messenger just because you dislike the message — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spelunkingmerica (talk • contribs) 18:24, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Can we add this photo?

File:Sater-head-shot.png

Sater-head-shot

Sater's Violent Felony History Is Not In Dispute, But His Agents Are Trying To Hide It

The facts of Felix Sater's 1991 conviction on felony assault charges are not in dispute, except on Wikipedia. Mr. Sater told a series of bold lies on national television last week, as this blog post on The Stern Facts points out in a completely factual manner with sources, videos and screenshots. [Source reacted] Here is the original copy of the prosecutors' brief on Sater in his 1994 appeal - which he lost - that uses trial transcripts with sworn testimony as its primary source of factual data.

This should end all doubt about Sater's violent actions then, and there should not be any further removal of that section of his bio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spelunkingmerica (talk • contribs) 18:21, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

See WP:BLPPRIMARY -- we won't use court documents as sources for this biography. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I have removed the court documents from here as well, because BLP rules apply to talk pages as well as article mainspace. I would suggest considering that when making any allegations yourself, because without sources those too can be removed as BLP vios (and this is coming awefully close if not over the line already.) Zaereth (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

From the body of the Wikipedia article, Early Life section: "Mikhail Sheferovsky (also known as Michael Sheferofsky) states that the family name was Saterov at some point (Сатаров).[10] According to the FBI, Mikhail Sheferovsky was an underboss for Russian Mafia "boss of bosses" Semion Mogilevich and convicted of extorting money from local restaurants, grocery stores, and a medical clinic.[11]"

What is the relevance here? This information just doesn't seem germane.

GretchenFromWordsRWeapons (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

He's flipped

Criteria for reputable sourcing link? Wikipietime (talk) 07:45, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

http://www.newsweek.com/felix-sater-russia-trump-putin-656059

"....n an email sent in November 2015, a few months after Trump had announced he was running, Sater told Cohen he could get President Vladimir Putin's team "to buy in" on the Trump Tower Moscow idea. He then boasted, "Buddy, your boy can become president of the USA and we can engineer it."..."

good content for article. --Wikipietime (talk) 01:55, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

"BuzzFeed News also confirmed another 1998 mission, in which Sater infiltrated the Afghan precious stone market to find dealers who were laundering money for al-Qaeda. Sater found his own dealer, from New York City’s 47th Street diamond district, and brought him to the Middle East to make the ruse seem more authentic. An FBI source said the Justice Department later confirmed this detail in court filings that remain under seal. BuzzFeed News reviewed an internal government document about the mission in which an intelligence official characterized the information Sater passed on as “highly sensitive intelligence.”"

This contradicts this article's statement that Sater began cooperating with the FBI on international money laundering only in 2017. Suggest it be changed to 1998.

"He did some of this work to fend off prison time after he admitted guilt in a stock scam — but he had started helping the US government before then, and he continued to report back to the FBI after the agreement ended. Today, as he is being questioned about Trump's business deals and ties to Russia, he has built relationships with at least six members of special counsel Robert Mueller’s team, some going back more than 10 years."

Same article confirms he was an FBI asset before pleading guilty to charges stemming from the stock fraud.

"“The defendant in question, Felix Sater, provided valuable and sensitive information to the government during the course of his cooperation, which began in or about December 1998. For more than 10 years, he worked with prosecutors providing information crucial to national security and the conviction of over 20 individuals, including those responsible for committing massive financial fraud and members of La Cosa Nostra. For that reason, his case was initially sealed.”

To the government, he was no longer Felix Sater; in public he was referred to as John Doe, while in hundreds of pages of FBI interview reports, his code name was “The Quarterback.”"

This, from the same article, seems like it includes material for a few pointed additions to the "Criminal Convictions and Federal Cooperation" section. The same article also goes into detail about his involvement in dismantling Al Qaeda leadership and the search for Bin Laden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GretchenFromWordsRWeapons (talk • contribs) 23:04, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

GretchenFromWordsRWeapons (talk) 20:50, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Sater says here that he and his wife Viktoria are separated. It might be more accurate to reflect that in the "Personal Life" section, rather than saying they live together.

GretchenFromWordsRWeapons (talk) 21:42, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

McClatchy says Felix Sater is cooperating with Mueller

This McClatchy story's contents should be added asap.

Sater is cooperating with Mueller’s investigation and provided more than six hours of closed-door testimony on Wednesday to the Senate Intelligence Committee, which also focused heavily on the deals involving Cohen, according to multiple people with knowledge of the hearing. Sater previously provided similar closed-door testimony to the House Intelligence Committee in December 2017.

Closed

The web-site mentioned seems to have closed down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.127.25 (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi, which website are you talking about? GreyGoose (talk) 03:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

NPOV

The notability is due to the legal issues, which is missing in the lead, and not given due weight in the body. Widefox; talk 09:17, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Then you should just put it there. Not the bar fight obviously, but the plea.--WatchingContent (talk) 22:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

There's already a subsection about "legal issues". That's enough, and probably already undue. He's a notable real estate developer.Zigzig20s (talk) 13:09, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I took out some material that was sourced by a press release from Sater's lawyer. Not a credible source in this instance, but it will be interesting to watch the trolls come out. Badiacrushed (talk) 14:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested Edits

Hi, I'm a freelance writer working for WordsRWeapons, a firm currently employed by Mr. Sater. Here's a quote from Buzzfeed News detailing Sater's FBI-organized involvement in money laundering investigations well before 2017. I think the article should reflect the above by adjusting the date it claims he participated in helping to expose money laundering to 2005:

"He went undercover in Cyprus and Istanbul to catch Russian and Ukrainian cybercriminals around 2005. After the FBI set him up with a fake name and background, Sater posed as a money launderer to help nab the suspects for washing funds stolen from US financial institutions."

Here's a second quote from the Buzzfeed news article which makes it clear that Sater became an asset in 1996, before his conviction for stock fraud. Can we change the part about his cooperating only after conviction to reflect this? Maybe "In 1996, the DIA contacted Sater and asked him to work as an intelligence asset, which he agreed to do to "help his country and for the thrill."":

After working on what he called “the dark side of Wall Street” for 18 months, Sater said he left the business in 1995 because he “didn’t want to do dirty shit anymore.” The next year, he went to Russia to work on telecommunications deals with AT&T and others. One night, Sater was at dinner with a group of Russians in Moscow when he was introduced to an American defense contractor named Milton Blane. Sater said Blane, who died last year, followed him into the restroom that night and asked for his phone number to set up a meeting the following day.

At an Irish pub, Blane explained that he worked for the DIA and that some of the people Sater had been dining with were high-level Russian intelligence agents. “‘You’re in with a group who could deliver,’” Sater recalls Blane telling him. Blane, Sater said, asked him to work as an asset, intelligence lingo for a confidential source, but warned, “‘I want you to understand: If you’re caught, the USA is going to disavow you and, at best, you get a bullet in the head.’”

Sater's fluent Russian, his business connections, and his access to Russian military officials would have made him a prime recruitment target for any US intelligence agency in Moscow, two longtime intelligence officers said. But they also said Blane’s approach was unorthodox — recruits wouldn’t usually be told they would be disavowed, and a counterintelligence investigation would normally have taken place to ensure Sater wasn’t working for an enemy.

In any event, the Moscow meeting with Blane launched Sater’s work for the government, which would last for the better part of two decades. He said he was not paid for his work — which two Justice Department officials confirmed — but did it to help his country and for the “thrill.”

From the same article, relevant in that it counterbalances the "he has been described as a career criminal" quote from the Wikipedia page. After that, could we insert "A top US intelligence official working in counter-terrorism has said "[He] likely does not realize how important his work has been in saving American lives. What he did on behalf of the US for more than a decade outweighs any of the bad deeds from his youth.":

Said another top intelligence official who worked directly on terror cases before and after 9/11, “Felix likely does not realize how important his work has been in saving American lives. What he did on behalf of the US for more than a decade outweighs any of the bad deeds from his youth.” Sater, the official said, “deserves a commendation.”

Relevant for the same reasons, and from the same article:

“The length of his cooperation is extraordinary,” said Marshall Miller, another assistant US attorney. “And I wanted to be here to express from the office’s perspective just how capable a cooperator he was, how important a cooperator he was, and how effective he was.”

From the same article, this seems highly relevant. Can we add a line at the end of "Criminal convictions and federal cooperation" about his still operating as a source? Maybe "Sater's cooperation with the FBI is ongoing. US officials confirm he continues to provide reliable information.":

To this day, Sater continues to cooperate with the FBI and Justice Department, he said in his statement to the House Intelligence Committee. He wouldn't disclose additional details, except to say that he works on “international matters.” Two US officials confirmed Sater continues to be a reliable asset.

Finally, the following quote from the same article shows Sater and his wife have separated, so stating they live together is erroneous. Can we remove that?:

"The glare of the Trump-Russia investigation, he said, has taken its toll: His marriage of 29 years collapsed, his reputation is mud among his business friends, and he has recently been the subject of anti-Semitic messages and phone calls from neo-Nazi groups." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GretchenFromWordsRWeapons (talk • contribs) 23:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

The cited article: https://www.buzzfeed.com/anthonycormier/felix-sater-trump-russia-undercover-us-spy?utm_term=.od9jdqNKK#.ag2VbOyDD

GretchenFromWordsRWeapons (talk) 23:14, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi GretchenFromWordsRWeapons. I see that you made some updates to your comment from May. Thank you for making specific suggestions about how your client would like to see his page changed. Please note, however, that it is easier to notice and less confusing for other editors if you make a new comment rather than revising an old comment. For clarity, I have pulled out the requested changes:

1) "I think the article should reflect the above by adjusting the date it claims he participated in helping to expose money laundering to 2005"

2) "Can we change the part about his cooperating only after conviction to reflect this? Maybe "In 1996, the DIA contacted Sater and asked him to work as an intelligence asset, which he agreed to do to "help his country and for the thrill.""

3) "From the same article, relevant in that it counterbalances the "he has been described as a career criminal" quote from the Wikipedia page. After that, could we insert "A top US intelligence official working in counter-terrorism has said "[He] likely does not realize how important his work has been in saving American lives. What he did on behalf of the US for more than a decade outweighs any of the bad deeds from his youth."

4) "Finally, the following quote from the same article shows Sater and his wife have separated, so stating they live together is erroneous. Can we remove that?"

Are all of these statements supported by the one Buzzfeed article? Note that, especially since Sater is a controversial and semi-prominent figure who has been the subject of many articles, it would be helpful if there are independent reliable sources supporting these claims. Regards, Tdslk (talk) 22:04, 9 July 2018 (UTC)