Talk:Fernando Henrique Cardoso

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Untitled

How do I list foreing University names? Do I have to translate the word refering to "University" and the city, too?

Thanks all. Sorry if my english is bad.

The general convention seems to be to simply use the local name (ie, in the native language) unless there's a widely used English form of the name. --Brion

What about the negatives?

It seems obvious that the author of this article is a fan of Cardoso. I would like to read a more balanced opinion on him. What are the things he did wrong? Are Lula's allegations of corruption against Cardoso unfounded? -- Ayo

Ayo, there are no allegations of corruption made by Lula against Cardoso. Could you explain your sources or quote where you have seen that? Elk

There are many little scandals, namely the connections between the corrupt judge Nicolau dos Santos and Cardoso's presidency secretary, Eduardo Jorge; some misusing of BNDES money when selling the state companies. The worst, however, could be the cash-for-vote scandal when passing the Reelection amendment. Another terrible negative - although not a corruption scandal - is the famous Apagão, in the end of the 90's, when Brazil was threatened by blackout. Anyway (read the topics bellow) this article has few things (bad or good) about FHC's presidency. José San Martin 15:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The Nicolau case has nothing to do with the executive branch, but the Eduardo Jorge case was really something that should have been investigated in depth. I never heard about a cash-for-vote for FHC, so I'd be interested in seeing stuff on it. I agree the article is a plain overview. Let's see if we can improve, shall we?--Dali-Llama 15:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that, in his own self-defense, Lula's former Chief of Staff, José Dirceu, mentioned Eduardo Jorge as someone who had been "wrongfully accused" when Cardoso was in office (the implication of the argument was that he, Dirceu, should not be equally "wrongfully accused" of crimes he claims he did not committ). Cardoso BTW fired Eduardo Jorge. On the other hand, the cash-for-vote scandal involving a small number of Congressmen from the northern state of Acre has never been directly linked either to Cardoso or any top official in his party or administration (it is nothing like for example Lula's cash-for-votes or "mensalão" scandal). In fact, in retrospect and in view of all that has surfaced over the past 12 months about the Lula administration, Cardoso's government is now seen in Brazil as surprisingly "clean" as far as corruption goes. 161.24.19.82 14:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Right-wing parties

I moved this discussion here

Cardoso's government

As I said above, this is not an article about a president. FHC was president for eight years, and, bad or good, he was somewhat important. Many things changed during those eight years.

I suggest a little effort to make it more than a bigger stub. Let's take Lula's article as a base. José San Martin 16:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ruth Cardoso

The article lists the wife as Ruth Cardoso, which is correct, but the link is incorrectly given as Ruth Cardoso, the chess player. That entry talks about Ruth Cardoso (the chess player) as being confused with Ruth Cardoso (the President's wife)!

What will this debate accomplish?

Chicocvenancio, the term "accomplished" has nothing to do with original research, for the term, in itself, is quite neutral. The three definitions that Merriam-Webster (the leading dictionary in the US) provide are:

1 : to bring about (a result) by effort <have much to accomplish today> 2 : to bring to completion : FULFILL <we can accomplish the job in an hour> 3 : to succeed in reaching (a stage in a progression) <would starve before accomplishing half the distance -- W. H. Hudson died 1922>

The past tense form of the second definition is in use in the current form of the article. The sentence in question, "he is also an accomplished sociologist," does not qualify the relative value of Cardoso's work--it merely states that he has accomplished quite a bit as an academic.

The article has already provided citations which state that he has been active on a number of prestigious campuses, including Princeton, Brown University the École des Hautes Études en Sciences Sociales, the Collège de France, Paris-Nanterre University, the University of Cambridge, Stanford University and the University of California, Berkeley. There is much more to his (academic) career, but, that, in itself, is quite an accomplishment.

I would understand your grievances if the term in question were "successful" (as it can be argued that the application of his sociological ideals was disastrous) or "exceptional" (as that would suggest an overwhelmingly pro-Cardoso bias), but your opposition to "accomplished" is something that I frankly do not understand. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 01:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

My opposition is not to accomplished, to successful, to exceptional or any other term, nor is it to FHC himself(at least no in WP). My opossition is to any term not associated to FHC by a realiable resource as per WP:OR, as it specifically says that you should not make a synthesis from Webster and Cardoso's work, unless some reliable source made it and you cite it.Chico 16:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Chico... I have cited an article from Newsweek International (hosted by MSNBC News) which uses the exact language of the sentence (the sentence in its entirety reads, "An accomplished sociologist, he was banished from the classroom at the University of São Paulo after the 1964 coup.") If you still have qualms, I have another source (Brown University) which describes him as "a renowned scholar in sociology and political science." --(Ptah, the El Daoud 00:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC))

Collor

it´s necessary to mention FHC followed Collor´s macroeconomic agenda and that FHC had its road all preapered by Collor´s. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 11:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's one thing to mention it in the Collor article. It's another to do it in the FHC article. The weight given is different. It's not enough to copy and paste text from other articles into this. It doesn't fit. It sounds like you're advertising Collor, which regardless of merit, doesn't make for an NPOV article. In this case, the inflation figures are valid, since they reflect his government and his economic policy. Talking about red tape, imports, and "Revolution" is not appropriate in the FHC article. It's undue weight That's why I'm suggesting the Collor stuff just stay out of the FHC article. Otherwise, let's propose the changes here, in the talk page, before we start changing the main article--Dali-Llama 11:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Absolotely not. Most of FHC´s legacy is due to the success with Plano real, which we all know the origins, and its aconomic basis. It´s absolutely necessary to mention that. I dont´why you think all articles are yours and we all should obey you. That´s quite a communist behavior. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 14:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

HA! "Communist behavior"! That's funny. It's like I'm back in the 60s all of a sudden. I promised myself a long time ago that I wouldn't discuss my personal politics on Wikipedia, and I won't start now. My politics or yours shouldn't matter. Policy should. In this case, of your original text, one part in this case is perfectly applicable: citing inflation rates from 1994 to 2000. The other is a mixture of Undue Weight, Original Research and Synthesis. And the commonly accepted theory is that the Plano Real had nothing to do with the Plano Collor. Both had the same goal, but radically different strategies. Plano Collor sought to stop inflation by restricting financial movement (the "freeze"). Plano Real used de-indexation to stop inflation. One worked. The other didn't. The problem with saying the Collor plan ended hyperinflation is that they only managed to bring it down to 20% a month, which is still considered hyperinflation by most economists (see the hyperinflation article) and in the end required an entirely new approach to kill it (Plano Real). And again, my issue with what you're saying is that this is not a commonly accepted theory, and therefore it requires more than just citing a source. Once again: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. It's not enough for you to Google "FHC deve a Collor" and put the first college paper you can find. To include it, you'd need an exceptional body of evidence, as it is not the commonly understood interpretation.--Dali-Llama 15:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Dependency Theory?

It seems like this article should, rather than just mentioning that Cardozo was an academic, mention the contribution of his work on dependency theory, i.e., Dependency and Development in Latin America. Given the importance the theory played, it is probably as notable as his time as President of Brazil.

I agree with whomever wrote the previous message. Unfortunately, I had already written the same thing but it was deleted. I can't believe even this area is being edited by others. 189.10.1.166 (talk)

Agree. Foreign Affairs Journal published a good review of it in 1997. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20048243.

"This expanded and revised edition of the classic work on dependency in Latin America had an enormous influence on a generation of American scholars, as it had in the preceding decade influenced many Latin American intellectuals. Dependency theory came to form a virtually monolithic interpretive framework. The book was originally written during the mid-1960s in Chile, where Cardoso, now president of Brazil, was living in exile, and was first published in Mexico in 1971. In an attempt to bring historical and sociological substance to what Cardoso and Faletto, a Chilean scholar, saw as the overly economistic interpretation espoused by the U.N. Economic Commission for Latin America, Cardoso and Faletto sought a return to political economy as opposed to pure economics and looked at the role of social classes, the state, and corporatist and bureaucratic structures as well as the key role of multinational corporations in setting the constraints within which Latin American development took place. Curiously, it is less in the original text than in their postscript to the English translation where Cardoso and Faletto's more overtly socialist arguments appear most dated."--Lacarids (talk) 01:15, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Brazil ex-first lady Cardoso died

Brazil ex-first lady Cardoso died

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7474504.stm --87.78.162.138 (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Atheist?

I've read several times he's an admitted atheist. I would think that this is an important note, especially in a country whose most well know landmark is a giant statue of Jesus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.105.35 (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• Read his memoirs: he clearly says he's not an atheist. "The accidental president of Brazil: a memoir" Fernando Henrique Cardoso, trans. by Brian Winter. Page 163. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simfan34 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Though I agree that Wikipedia should be based in verifiability, not truth, and that biographies of living persons with this kind of controversial topic being categorically denied by the person himself is an issue to be respected, Fernando Henrique Cardoso IS an atheist (and a liberal, in the American sense, though here in Brazil he is much more to the Right), and everybody which understands just a little bit of the 90s in Brazil knows – or at least he was in the past. Oh, I swear it. :) Lguipontes (talk) 08:23, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a rumor mill. --Simfan34 (talk) 19:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, and it is reasonable for you to think this way. Rumors about a specially unpopular ex-president 10 years after the end of his mandate, in a "'religious' 'Catholic' Latin American country" (though evangelicals are much more influntial in pushing social conservative points of view just as in the United States anyway), are not a nice thing. But I am an atheist myself (and in Brazil, atheism is a big taboo, since ~95% of people believe in God and >90% are believers in some Abrahamic religion, and people mantain a mentality of importance on faith for your morality and ethos). Fernando Henrique Cardoso has many reasons to not publicly opening it (since he was elected President, at least). Could be a source for antipathy from the Right. Religious morality campaings of the PSDB in 2010 and 2012 are very perceptible, me, my family and my friends (including religious persons) describe it as even distasteful. At least I'm from Rio and not São Paulo, where they are in power for about 2 decades. Lguipontes (talk) 23:03, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll appreciate that if someone knows a RS about his atheism to please show it. Wikipedia acceptable sources don't include forums or sites were it is claimed that he is an atheist. Like it was stated in his memoirs book, he denies being an atheist.Mistico (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

There are some basis for the claims that he is an atheist. This article states that he avoided talking about his faith while a President and even denied once ever being an atheist, saying he always had been a Catholic [1]. The common belief is that he is not a very religious person but also doesn't identify himself as an atheist.Mistico (talk) 21:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

PC?

In the beginning of the article FHC is presented as a Privy Councilor (PC) - most likely, a PC to the Queen of the UK, I suppose. However I never heard about this in Brazil and Brazilian media do not mention this. I suppose Brazilian Constitution would bar a citizen from being a member of a (foreign) PC, and there is no PC in Brazil. And I have not found his name in Wikipedia article on "List of Privy Councillors (1952–present)" (see [2]). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjanine (talk • contribs) 03:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Article editing and impartiality

It seems this article has been edited by someone with unconcealed prejudice against Fernando Henrique Cardoso. The referred person, in the section about FHC's years in the Presidency, has cited incorrect data and shown partisanship towards leftist economic policies and nationalisation of enterprises. Not to mention the use of awkward Portuguese-influenced English, through the employment of words such as "deSnationalisation", when it should be "denationalisation". I recommend a deeper research into the content of this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mibk15 (talk • contribs) 22:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

In Exile

Following the military coup, Cardoso was in exile in Chile from April 1964 - September 1968. Maybe saying that he "fled" is more accurate. In his book, he writes

"With in hours of the coup, the military police arrested a thirty·four year·old sociology professor named Fernando Henriq ue Cardoso. Or so they thought. In reality, they derained a younger colleague of mine, Bento Prado, on his way into the university, imc:rrogatcd him for a while, and then started to take him away to God knows where. Thankfully, he managed to convince them that he was nor me, and they grudgingly let him go. I didn't didn't need a doctorate to understand the message: I was a wanted man. Bewildered, I spent the next few nights at friends houses, on couches and cots, changing hideouts every few nights. l didn't feel particularly momentous or even that frightening at the time, though--ridiculous would be a better description. Here I was, a professor on the run, transformed overnight into some kind of Che Guevara in a tweed jacker. I almost felt like turning myself in just so I could ger answers to basic questions: Why had I been targeted for arrest? Who had given the order? What law had I broken? And, perhaps most important: On whose authority? Who was in charge of Brazil?"

His exile should be included in the article, but I'm not sure where. Anyone want to put it in?

Source: Cardoso, Fernando Henrique. The Accidental President of Brazil: A Memoir. New York: Public Affairs, 2007. pp 75-78, 101-103. http://site.ebrary.com/lib/alltitles/docDetail.action?docID=10457810. --Lacarids (talk) 01:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Improvements

I`ve tried to make some small improvements on the article, but I got carried away and in the end wrote quite a bit. Of course, my own account is that the edit really improved the text, connecting some dots, adding information, correcting a few details and trying to put a more balanced perspective. I still feel like his intellectual work should be expanded, that undue attention is given to small things while more important issues of his presidency - on health, education, social security and foreign policy, for example - are neglected, and that somewhat his political positions are not well put in the context of brazilian politics. But I preferred not to enter into subjects that would require more attentive research, at least for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marco.natalino (talk • contribs) 19:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

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End of Presidential Term

An anonymous user (@190.104.120.136:) is insistent in changing the end of term dates for a number of Brazilian presidents and vice presidents (including FHC which is why I`m raising this here as a random example) to the 31st of December.This is not correct, the term ends at the inauguration ceremony when the incumbent formally hands over. This occurs on 1st January. It may sound like a technicality, but why use the wrong date? Bagunceiro (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

By the way, there's probably a better place to discuss this but I couldn`t think where. Bagunceiro (talk) 22:38, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Changed it back, let's see how long it lasts. Dear anonymous user, the presidential term ends on the same day the following one begins. Zelani (talk) 18:54, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

@Bagunceiro: Another anon keeps doing it. Probably a troll that won't stop. I've told him/her countless times that the end terms on January 1 per the official source of the presidency. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Birth Year?

Hello, I am performing some research on notable people over age 85 and noticed that the Wikipedia entry for Fernando Henrique Cardoso lists his birthdate as 18 June 1930; and it is unsourced. I have noticed that in several of the references included in the Wikipedia entry (for example, reference numbers 2, 4 & 10), his birth year is listed as 1931.

I do not feel expert enough in Cardoso's biography to make any changes to his birth information myself, but I suggest to other interested persons that further research is peformed to verify his correct birth year Chicodo (talk) 19:21, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

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