Talk:Fettuccine Alfredo/Archive 1

Archive 1

(Untitled)

Parsley? I've never heard of it as an essential ingredient in Alfredo sauce. Anyone have proof? Kent Wang 21:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I always thought parsley was optional - AKeen 21:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

alla Carbonara

Just adding bacon does not make it "alla Carbonara" Eggs are an essential ingredient and many versions do not include cream. Calling "alla carbonara" alfredo sauce with bacon is wrong.

I completely agree. Also, it's important to inform people in this article that Alfredo is essentially American food, not Italian.72.78.154.193 (talk) 06:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Lelio/Lello

Someone recently changed the inventor from Alfredo di Lelio to Alfredo di Lello. Both turn up hits on google - Anyone know the correct spelling? - AKeen 21:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

di Lelio is correct, I believe. At least it is spelled that way on the Alfredo's website. - Athos23 17:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

di Lelio is also the way it is spelled in the New York Times article referred to but not cited untiul I added it. I really do wish contributers would do their own research Mike Hayes (talk) 01:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Recipe

The infredients are mentionned but that's it. How about a recipe and more importantly instructions on how to make the sauce?

How-to articles are not considered appropriate in Wikipedia. I have added a link to the Cookbook article. Mike Hayes (talk) 01:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Alfredo Sauce

It is sheer, easily disproven fallacy to claim that there is no such thing as alfredo sauce, only fettuccine alfredo.

All you have to do is go to any grocery store. They sell the sauce.

You can put alfredo sauce on any noodle, 'though it doesn't work well with spaghetti-type noodles, needing more surface area. It does do well on, say, penne and other hollow noodles. But, at the very least, it works on linguine almost identically to fettuccine. The core article should be Alfredo (dish) or Alfredo (sauce), not Fettuccine Alfredo. I'm sure some chefs think it can ONLY be the latter, but that's just their narrow view. This isn't a science, where we only define according to some authority. If people and food distributors refer to the sauce separately, then it is separate. Kaz 17:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I guess you're right that we need to present "Alfredo sauce" on an equal footing with "fettuccine alfredo", since it was after all made famous in the US. On the other hand, I don't agree about injecting POV and advice to use a particular brand of butter (I like Plugra, but it only has 3% more fat, anyway). I am not sure what is meant by "using... Parmigiano Reggiano cheese instead of ... parmesan": I guess to use real Parmesan rather than US-made imitations? But the article already talks about the common substitution of imitations. As for "This creates a very rich sauce that might horrify fat-watchers, but thrills devout Italian food fanatics and low-carb dieters" -- this is pure editorializing, which isn't WP style, and neither is "an excessive amount" of cheese. --Macrakis 20:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You know, I've thought a little about this, and I think you're right. We need to hold our noses and deal with reality regardless of how revolting it is. The fact is, as you say, most Americans have never tasted anything like the original fettuccine alfredo, and for them, the version that comes from a bottle with starch thickening and ersatz cheeses is fettuccine alfredo. The fact that Italians don't think of pasta dishes as composed of pasta plus a separate sauce is irrelevant; we need to deal with mass-market American food habits. The question is how to present the evolution from the original fettuccine alfredo, which was just di Lelio's fancy name for a rich fettuccine al burro prepared at table, to the current American dish. I suppose we should put in the context of American eating trends: mass-market chain faux-Italian restaurants (PappaRazzi's, Olive Garden, etc.); convenience foods (as though fettuccine al burro was hard to make from scratch!) made industrially with low-quality ingredients, and all that. To do this the WP way, we'll need to find good sources, though, not rely on our personal opinions. John Hess would no doubt have had a choice word or two.... Ideas? --Macrakis 21:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

At www.foonews.net , Filipo wrote ythe following:

"le fettuccine al burro...(doppio, triplo..)

sono piu' recenti e non fanno parte della tradizione romana, ma sono un piatto di un ristorante romano (alfredo). poi sono piu' famose perche'

venivano servite con una forchetta d'oro che per il piatto in se"

"Fetuccine al burro (double, triple ...)
is very recent and is not part of the Roman tradition, but is a dish from a Roman restaurant (Alfredo). It is famous because it was served with a gold fork ..."

Mike Hayes (talk) 02:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the redirect from Alfredo sauce is inappropriate. Alfredo sauce, as sold in the United States, is a distinct product. Fred Talk 18:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Ingredients

The article heading mentions the sauce containing Parmesan cheese, butter, and heavy cream. Our current "history" section mentions adding more butter to the older recipe, but it does not mention how the cheese or cream were added to make Fettuccine Alfredo. This should be explained. Thomprod (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I found a reference saying that Americans added the cream to the recipe, but the source is a blacklisted website. Thomprod (talk) 14:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Popularity

I'm italian and I added to the text the main caratteristic of this receipe: it's by far much more popular in USA than in his homeland Italy. Like for "Latte" and "spaghetti with meatballs" this food is considered in Italy "poor simple stuff" you make at home and you hardly find them in restaurants or cafè. Alfredo himself have prepared this first for his sick wife at home. Anyway in Italy it is usually not known as "Pasta Alfredo" but like a variant of "Pasta al burro"/"Pasta in bianco" (means respectively "Pasta with butter" and "Pasta in White") these are usually prepared with less butter than the Alfredo one and rarely with cream (in my experience all american versions of italian receipes have more cream than the italian ones). Corrado PS Put bacon in "Alfredo sauce" and call it "Pasta alla carbonara" it is not only wrong, I guess you could be arrested in Italy!!!:D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.145.139.13 (talk) 08:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Someone correct my correction this way: In Italy, though fettuccine al burro is widely known, the name 'alfredo' and the American variants with chicken, vegetables, and so on are unknown. The last part of the sentences is absolutely wrong! All pasta in north of Italy (let's say from Emilia Romagna to alps) is with butter. If the sentences was true in North Italy we do not know any pasta with vegetables? And, anyway, Fettucine Alfredo is a variation of the Fettucine al burro it is not exctly the same stuff. The quantity of butter is different. Therefore I make a correction to the sentences. If somebody does not agree and could make it better ok but please be polite explain how and why.Do not put wrong sentences without citation. Corrado —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.145.139.13 (talk) 17:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to explain better: no Italian would ever spend money for a meal in a restaurant to eat simply boiled pasta with a chunk of butter and a bit of grated Parmigiano tossed on it. That's something anyone would cook for themselves coming home after an hard day at word and without the energy or time to do anything more complex.

Apart from that, I'm sure that most Romans finding themselves in that situation, would rather prepare and eat agio, olio e peperoncino. Butter is used mostly in the North.--Dia^ (talk) 21:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

This is international cooking, not Italian

This dish simply does not exist in Italy, it might be a personal invention of a local restaurant in Rome, but you can find this stuff all arond the wrorld apart Italy. This is reallt odd! Ask all italians you meet on the road and for "fettucini alfredo" (gosh, 108.000 hits on google!) they will look at you like an alien. I am Italian and I knew about the existence of this dish traveling in Germany. Kind regards --57.90.36.29 (talk) 11:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC) The article should reflect the fact that not a single italian who hasn't been abroad knows of the existence of this dish and that it is not part of italian tradition.

I absolutely agree. I'm Italian and I first heard of "Fettuccine Alfredo" travelling to the USA. It is definitely not a typical Italian dish, not even in Rome. --TheLoneTraveller (talk) 18:29, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree: Fettuccine Alfredo is not a tipical italian dish, it could probably be a "name substitution" usually done in italian restaurants... The fact that "fettuccine alfredo" is not present in italian version of Wikipedia should be relevant to highlight this fact... It is a US creation, not italian.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.236.47.196 (talk) 10:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. As the article says, the dish is nothing more than Fettuccine al burro e parmigiano, a staple food, at least in Rome. If there is something that is not Italian, is the name. The dish is not present in the Italian Wikipedia because it is too simple to deserve an article. moreover, I don`t agree on the categorization in the Italian-American cuisine. It is an Italian dish, its origin is well documented (it is present on some among the most important books about roman cuisine) and the fact that it is immensely popular in the States is not enough to make of it an Italian-American dish. I think that an Italian-American dish can be defined as a dish that has been created by the Italian community in the US or has evolved from an Italian one. Alex2006 (talk) 17:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm Italian and know very well italian food, this name is a clear misnomer used only outside Italy for a very common dish. I tried to specify this in the main article but got reverted and this feels like a wrong doing. It must be clear on wikipedia that maybe an italian knows better about Italy than an American. Why is it not possible to clear this FACT: "This name is NEVER used in Italy and every italian who hears it ridicules it"? Whoever had the courage to undo this truth should come here to Rome (Italy) and check. This is the end of Wikipedia, where an ignorant mass of people believe to know better than a well-informed minority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.205.216.49 (talk) 12:48, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Dear ip, the fact that you "are Italian and knows very well Italian food" means nothing. Wikipedia works with reliable sources, and the sources (among them, Luigi Carnacina and Vincenzo Buonassisi: as Italian I am sure that you know both of them) describes well the history of the dish in Rome . Moreover, reading what you wrote above, I don't understand yet what is you find not ok. Could you explain better what is wrong in the article? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

"A" in "Alfredo" should be capitalized

I moved the page from "Fettuccine alfredo" to "Fettuccine Alfredo" as the "A" is always capitalized (cf. wikt:fettuccine Alfredo, etc.). --MZMcBride (talk) 22:14, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Quotes section

Hi. I removed the "Quotes" section from the article in this edit:

Quotes

"Fettucini alfredo is macaroni and cheese for adults." - Mitch Hedberg

This content probably belongs at Wikiquote or somewhere like that. It doesn't belong in this article unless the quote is particularly notable. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

• I thought it was a great explanation to the hoi polloi of defining the dish and providing a smile to the in crowd; but I'll accept your decision. Thank you very much for your courtesy of notifying me.Foofbun (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Fettuccine and cream in Rome

I recently came across an interesting passage in an Italian book which confirms that fettuccine all'uovo were served with "burro e crema di latta" in Rome (among many other styles): 'frasi', Ristoranti a Roma, A.B.E.T.E. 1967, p. 52. The cheese seems to be taken for granted. --Macrakis (talk) 22:59, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Inconsistent with Italian Wikipedia

This article is total nonsense in trying to attribute this dish to Italy, or even the city of Rome. At that, mentioning old fashioned American movie stars Pickford and Fairbanks is an interesting anecdotal story for American interests and possibly explains how this recipe took to popularity here in the United States, but it in no way makes for an adequate explanation of how this should be attributed to Rome or Italy itself, especially when most Italians themselves don't even identify with the dish, or even recognize it whatsoever, and that this attribution would have originated ages ago in what's rather irrelevant to Italian culture and history. Heck, even many Italian-Americans can fathom that this is the silliest attribution and that Alfredo Sauce is nothing more than a bechamel sauce with likes of imitation Kraft parmesan cheese added into it rather than a French cheese in Mornay-style sauce. A proper Italian "pasta al burro" has no bechamel, and no cream or flour. It's just "burro fuso" (or emulsified butter) with "real" grated Parmigiano Reggiano. And it's typically served to children, or persons who are seeking comfort food when sick. Most Italians would scoff at the idea of Alfredo sauce on pasta, aside from requesting "pasta al burro" at a formal dinner table with adults.

All one needs do is take a look a the Italian Wikipedia translation which reads: "Alfredo fettuccine have become a widespread dish in Italian American restaurants in the United States and a symbol of "Italianness" [8] ; the recipe, however, is not that of the Roman restaurant of Alfredo Di Lelio, but a variant that involves the use of cream (instead of the creamy butter originally intended) [5] and other ingredients, such as chicken breast, that little or nothing they have to do with the original.

The fettuccine Alfredo are practically the same thing as butter and cheese or butter and Parmesan pasta, one of the oldest and most simple ways to season pasta. This recipe, known in Italy as "white pasta", with oil instead of butter, a little garlic and pepper, is consumed at home, especially when there are small children [9]. Despite the Italian origins, the name "fettuccine Alfredo" is practically unknown in Italy [10], usually this type of pasta is reported almost exclusively in the menus of tourist restaurants." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.202.143.106 (talk) 10:38, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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[Untitled comment]

I would like to add some important distinctions: in Italy "pasta al burro" is usually something home cooked and served when people is sick, using whatever pasta, long or short, you like and dressed with butter, typically melted. Pasta in bianco is pasta without any sauce, dressed only with butter or even just plain oil, typically olive oil. None of these two is prepared using pasta all'uovo but instead using just regular pasta. Pasta all'uovo is traditionally in the shape of fettuccine but fettuccine are NOT made only with eggs! Infact they're often used in recipes with fish, where nobody would ever dare to use pasta all'uovo! Pasta all'uovo is better served with creamy sauces and, indeed, at least in Northern Italy cream (panna da cucina) is found in any grocery store and used in many recipes. Therefore is very much possible that someone, may be even the original mr Alfredo, may have added some cream in the recipe, although I'd say this is not at all common in Italy. Last, I wholeheartedly disagree with the definition of comfort food: in Italy pasta al burro, or in bianco, is more something you serve to a sick person, in the assumption they couldn't retain and digest a proper sauce, than a comfort food. Which would, in case, be pasta served with "aglio, olio e peperoncino", i.e. garlic, oil and hot pepper flakes. Or, expecially in the Rome area, what is called "pasta al cacio", using caciocavallo cheese melted in some oil. Back to pasta al burro, I've never seen it prepared with pasta all'uovo, only with regular pasta. From the WP article it seems that the recipe, as served in the restaurant, was calling for pasta all'uovo: if so it would have been, in my opinion, an evolution from the original recipe, dictated to add to the richness of the dish. If that's the case, it would also be improper if not plainly incorrect to state that fettuccine Alfredo are, in Italy, pasta al burro: they are not, expecially considering how the Alfredo sauce has evolved in the US vs. the original dish of pasta al burro. In case it would be more correct to state that fettuccine Alfredo have evolved, in the US, from a recipe that in Italy is simply pasta al burro. Thanks Renato — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:400:A1E0:B581:4B19:3EF1:27A (talk) 09:17, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

this isn't an italian dish at all

this dish only exists in the USA, it was created in New York, it is not available in ANY italian restaurant anywhere in europe, let alone italy

and, more important, it goes against the whole idea of italian food, italians don't put cream in their pasta !

im editing the first line of this article, find a restaurant any restaurant in italy that serves this disgusting dish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martijn Scheffer (talk • contribs) 21:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Totally agree with you....there is no Fettuccine Alfredo Dish in Europe/Italy its American like Spaghetti and Meatballs,been to Italy and people never heart of Fettuccine Alfredo before...its just marketing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.199.228.211 (talk) 09:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC) Yes you're right. It is 100% not Italian. --79.19.219.156 (talk) 17:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Please read the article and try to understand what is written in it. Alex2006 (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not interested in some kind of American propaganda/ignorance or such. Just write it is Italian-American. If you ask for this dish in an Italian restaurant in Italy no one even knows what it is... --79.19.219.156 (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Not true: you can ask in Via della Scrofa or in Piazza Augusto Imperatore in Rome, and they will know it all too well. And being a variation of fettuccine al burro (as the article says), in Italy it is prepared everywhere. And since "origin" of a dish denotes where the dish was attested for the first time, origin of Fettuccine Alfredo is Italy. Alex2006 (talk) 06:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok we have a couple (yet only 2!) touristy restaurants who do it. Otherwise it is called everywhere "pasta al burro", so at least the name should be changed if we want to insert it in the "Italian cuisine" template. Its origins may be in Italy, but now it is an Italian-American dish, especially as in the US there are dozens of variations with nothing in common with the original pasta al burro recipe.--82.55.136.167 (talk) 10:00, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

They are not two touristy (?) restaurants, but two tradition restaurants (one 110 years old, the other 70) competing for the invention of the dish: and both also have faithful roman customers that go there to eat pasta all'alfredo. The dish was born in Rome, there is no discussion about this in both Italian and American sources, and pasta al burro was first attested in Italy, therefore it is an Italian dish. About the diffusion, again, it is not a dish of Italian American cuisine (like pizza, another dish born in Italy but now an integral part of American culinary culture), but of American cuisine, Italian Americans have nothing to do with its diffusion.

The only thing worth discussing is the name change in the template: this would make sense, but since pasta al burro in America is known as pasta alfredo (and on Wikipedia we only have one article for both denominations), because of WP:COMMONNAME the name of the dish on the wiki:en Template must remain pasta alfredo, even if for an Italian (I am Italian - roman - too) this sounds strange (but not stranger than "I would like to buy a cannoli" :-)). Alex2006 (talk) 11:48, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

@Alessandro57: look at this edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fettuccine_Alfredo&diff=prev&oldid=1219144501. JacktheBrown (talk) 02:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Multiple issues banner

I don't agree that this article is in such bad shape as to need a "multiple issues" banner. It is in the normal state of a Wikipedia article, being edited and debated by multiple editors. It already covers the major points:

• What the dish is.
• Who invented it.
• How it was prepared originally.
• That the name "fettuccine alfredo" is essentially unknown in Italy.
• That "fettuccine al burro" is pretty much the same thing.
• That variants in the US version include ingredients that are never found in Italy.
• Various stories about it (with sources), like the golden silverware.

Could it be expanded? -- sure! Could the English be improved? -- I don't see any flagrant problems requiring copy editing. Could someone point them out? --Macrakis (talk) 21:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Removed (by editor who placed the tags). No offence intended (noting, with great respect and appreciation, that you've been at it since 2006).

[NB: Banner was added in the context of the many points recently discussed above (from "Fettuccine Alfredo and fettuccine al burro aren't the same dish" onwards), and was intended in part to signal the impending edits. Much of this work has now been implemented.]

Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

PS: In my view, your bullet points above confirm that much of the needed work (per discussion) has been successfully implemented. Nice progression! Thanks Alessandro57, Cullen328, JackkBrown, Macrakis, Reywas92 et al. I'm also now wondering what it would take to get this article to GA status (or "Level 5 Vital" status per Lasagna)? Rater says its "B Class" now, but I don't have much experience with the higher rating criteria. Any advice? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Re-drafting, balancing, and copy editing (based on comments above)

This is a work in progress. Please be patient. Any help, ehem, thickening-up the "In American culture" section would be appreciated. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Will be back later and will try to finish-up this process over the weekend. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Macrakis: re: your reverts:

• I had moved the short paragraph the begins Recipes attributed to Di Lelio include only three ingredients into another section for two reasons: 1) to help establish the timeline of the recipe's evolution from the original; 2) because I was going to suggest deleting the entire remaining "Traditional preparation" section (which imparts virtually no information that isn't found elsewhere in the article, and includes an long block quote that's not much different from the earlier quote box quote).
• Alice Rohe's article helps helps establish credibility and a time-frame for the claim that Di Lelio was knighted – which is not actually established by any of our other sources as far as I can see (other than calling him "Cavaliere", which is an appellation that sometimes gets tossed around pretty cavalierly).
• Also, this edit pretty much contradicts everything that has been said and done to improve the article in the past week: We have established that Fettuccine Alfredo is an Italo-American dish which is virtually unknown by that name in Italy.

Thoughts? Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Why it matters?

Well – out of the Italo-American pasta pack, Alfredo is running neck and neck with Lasagna for first prize (a set Gold steak knives). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
PS: Notwithstanding those two breath-taking (and unexplained) Baked Ziti spikes. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Hahaha. I assure you it had something to do with an insidious capitalist campaign on TikTok, probably related to the popularity in the US of Michaelangelo's 3 cheese baked ziti, or perhaps their baked ziti and meatballs.;-) Carlstak (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Fascinating. Thank you for the reference. Not surprisingly, Mr. Angelo makes a Chicken Alfredo with Broccoli (which is, of course, "inspired by Italian traditions"). Perhaps the Sauce section of our article could be expanded to include other "Alfredo" formats (i.e., TV Dinners, etc.). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 19:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm, that might be useful, but it could really open a Pandora's box, I fear.;-) Carlstak (talk) 00:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Judging by the laudable (if not somewhat improbable) attention that the subject has garnered, it seems that nonno Alfredo has already well and truly blown the lid off of Pandora's box. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Name and emigration

It's not clear what Alfredo called his fettuccine on his menu in the 1920s.

• An Italian story (1923) calls them fettuccine maestose, a term later used in the superlative (maestosissime) by the restaurant.
• An Italian guidebook and its English translation (1925) calls them fettuccine al burro.

It's not even clear when they started being called fettuccine Alfredo in Italian. In English, George Rector (1927) called them "Alfredo's noodles" and Alice Rohe (1927) calls them "Noodles Alfredo", which may have been translations, or just descriptions or invented names.

As for when they came to the US, it is certainly true that Rector and Rohe talked them up starting in 1927. I don't know which of them was more widely read or whether their readers tried to reproduce the dish. The Musso and Frank Grill in Los Angeles has a story on their web site claiming that Fairbanks and Pickford brought Alfredo's recipe to Hollywood and had it cooked at Musso and Frank's, but that the dish was not added to the menu. Which sounds fishy.

What is the earliest confirmed "sighting" of the dish in an American restaurant? --Macrakis (talk) 22:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Great! The 1923 reference date reinforces our documented timeline nicely. The earliest instance of the actual "Fettuccine Alfredo" nomenclature I've seen is still that NYT piece from 1957. As for restaurant sightings, let's keep digging. I saw something else about the Musso & Frank Grill claim somewhere. Let me see if I can unearth it again.

Surprising that nobody has written a thesis or case study on the evolution of "Alfredo's noodles" into big "F" Fettuccine Alfredo. Seems like a missed opportunity.

Also, this edit does leave us with a bit of a hole between c. 1914 and 1943 on the Roman side of the divide (which now looks like it's missing a few teeth to my eye).

Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 18:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Reorganised the Rome/US sections to include some of the above. To my eye, it looks pretty good. The second, third, and fourth paragraphs of the "In American culture" section need further refinement and better integration (and the whole lot probably needs proofreading). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 18:34, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Long quotes

The two long quotes are now both in {{quotebox}} format. This made sense for two reasons: 1) Consistency; 2) Mobile device readability. (Also, the first has been slightly trimmed and a portion brought into the text body, which I've just noticed that I failed to note in the edit summary.) Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Possible useful sources

One of our references (Barry Popik – which may itself be non-RS) contains a goldmine of possible references. There is also some interesting information about US "Alfredo's" restaurants that may have a direct link to the Roman one(s) in places like Rockefeller Center (1970s and 1980s), as well as some information about "Fettuccine Alfredo" trademarks (apparently abandoned in 2001), etc. These sources may be useful in understanding the events and timelines that led to this dish becoming a ubiquitous staple of Italo-American cuisine.

Adding the references and trademark info here for ease of viewing (less the large blocks of possibly copyvio text, the 2009 WP cut and paste, etc.).:

Southern Italy: Including Rome, Sicily, and Sardinia By Findlay Muirhead, Luigi Vittorio Bertarelli, Consociazione turistica itailana, Touring club italiano Edition: 2 Published by Macmillan and co., ltd. 1925 Pg. 4: ...d’ Alfredo, 104 a, Via della Scrofa, noted for fettuccine al burro;...

So You’re Going to Rome! by Calara E. Laughlin Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Company Copyright, 1925 and 1928 Pg. 351: Most travellers would blush to admit they had been in Rome and had not eaten Alfredo’s fettucine al burro, a sort of macaroni with butter, which has netted Alfredo both fame and fortune. Alfredo is at 104 Via della Scrofa. [NB: Added to article on 25/4/24.]

6 May 1927, Cumberland (MD) Evening Times, pg. 6, cols. 2-3: Knighted For His Spaghetti How Alfredo Mixes Titled Fettuccine (Photo Caption: “Alfredo di Lelio mixing fettuccine for a patron.”) By ALICE ROHE NEA Service Special Correspondent Rome, May 6.—All the world knows that spaghetti is the reigning idsh in Italy. But what the world does not know perhaps is that the reigning king of Italy has knighted the owner of a little restaurant in Rome as the best spaghetti maker in the world. [NB: Added to article.]

8 June 1929, Modesto (CA) News-Herald, “Rector’s Recipes” by George Rector, pg. 10, col. 1: I AM going to give a recipe to-day for noodles Alfredo, as prepared by Alfredo himself in his tiny restaurant in Rome, Italy. The act of mixing the butter and cheese through the noodles becomes quite a ceremony, and as busy as Alfredo is with other duties he manages to be at each table when the waiter arrives with the platter of “fettuccine” to be mixed by him.

Noodles Alfredo Cook noodles in boiling salted water for twnety minutes. Drain in colander and hold under cold water to separate, then hold under hot water to reheat. Drain, place noodles on a large, hot platter, sprinkle top with grated Parmesan cheese and add three lumps of butter about the size of a small egg. Now take a large spoon and a fork and lift noodles from platter until butter and cheese are thoroughly blended with the noodles. Alfredo spends at least seven minutes blending the butter and cheese through the noodles. [NB: Added to article 8/5/24.]

3 June 1932, Indiana (PA) Evening Gazette, “How to Eat Spaghetti” by George Rector, pg. 15, col. 4: The best form of pasta is fettuccine, and some of the best fettuccine is published by Alfredo, Cavaliera della Corona d’Italia. Alfredo doesn’t make fettuccine. He doesn’t cook it. He achieves it.

I could go on for hours, painting the picture of Alfredo achieving his fettuccine. The ritual is as solemn and as breath taking as the majestic sight of the sun sinking over mountain tops. Rich calm beauty, and a deep promise of what is to come, plus an indefinable mystery. Yes, I know I’m waqxing poetic, but I stand my ground. Alfredo’s fettuccine is poetry.

10 December 1939, New York (NY) Herald Tribune This Week magazine, pg. 11, col. 3: Finally there is the recipe for spaghetti (Col. 4—ed.) which Mr. Morro got from the famous Alfredo in Rome. It’s a very simple one but a great favorite among distinguished gourmets visiting Rome. We call it Alfredo’s Spaghetti [NB: Added to article 8/5/24.]

1 package (8 oz.) spaghetti 1/4 cup butter 1/4 cup grated cheese Cook spaghetti in boiling, salted water according to directions on package. While hot dot generously with butter; turn until butter is melted. Sprinkle with grated cheese. Yield 4-6 servings.

28 February 1951, Uniontown (PA) Evening Standard, “He Meets His First King” by Henry McLemore, pg. 4, col. 2: ROME—I met my first king last night. (...) This jiggling monarch of 70 years of age was Alfredo the First, King of the Noodles, or in Italian, “Il Vero Re Delle Fettuccine.” [NB: Added to article.]

29 March 1956, Moravia (Iowa) Union, pg. 4, col. 6: Last week we had fettuccine al Alfredo, which was described on some program by a chef just oof the plane from Rome—he even brought his own cheese—and then we had cherries jubilee for dessert. [NB: Added to article 8/5/24.]

26 June 1957, New York (NY) Times, "Food; Three Restaurants" by June Owen, pg. 48: Fettuccine Alfredo, originated at the famous Alfredo’s in Rome, is another specialty ($1.65). The flat, noodlelike pasta is served with lots of butter and grated Parmesan cheese. [NB: Added to article on 25/4/24.]

10 April 1964, Oakland (CA) Tribune, Pg. D35, col. 5 ad: FETTUCCINE ALFREDO…1.50 [NB: Added to article on 25/4/24.]

(Trademark) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL FETTUCCINE ALFREDO SINCE 1914 Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Pre-cooked, non-frozen and semi-fresh fettuccine seasoned with sauce; fresh fettuccine; and dried fettuccine Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 02.09.11 - Humans engaged in other work; Humans, including men, women and children, depicted engaged in other work 05.15.02 - Laurel leaves or branches (borders or frames); Wreaths 08.13.01 - Macaroni; Noodles; Pasta; Spaghetti 11.01.25 - Brushes, basting; Chopsticks; Churns, butter (manual); Cups, measuring; Fruit juices, non-electric; Garlic presses (non-electric); Graters, cheese; Holders, kitchen utensil; Ice cube trays; Juicers, non-electric; Ladles (soup); Measuring cups; Napkin holders; Other non-electric kitchen utensils, utensil holders; Pasta makers, non-electric; Potato peelers; Racks, kitchen tool; Scoops, ice cream; Shakers, cocktail; Sharpeners, knife (non-electric) 12.01.07 - Billiard tables; Cabinets, cabins; Coffee tables; Conference tables; Dressing tables; End tables; Folding tables; Game tables; Nightstands; Picnic tables; Table tennis tables; Table, computer; Tables; Tables, pool 24.07.07 - Prize ribbons; Ribbons, prize Serial Number 75643879 Filing Date February 18, 1999 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition March 21, 2000 Owner (APPLICANT) MOZZETTI, MARIO INDIVIDUAL ITALY Via Conca d’Ore, 329 00141 Rome ITALY (APPLICANT) ALFREDO ALLA SCROFA S.N.C. Mario Mozzetti, Italian citizen, and Elisabetta Salvatori, a Italian citizen PARTNERSHIP ITALY Via della Scrofa 104 00186 Rome ITALY Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Anthony P. Venturino Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE “THE ORIGINAL FETTUCCINE ALFREDO” and “SINCE 1914” APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark The mark consists in part of the design of a man seated at a table and twirling pasta. The lining in the drawing is a feature of the mark and does not indicate color. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 21, 2001 Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Reference: https://roma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2024/02/07/news/fettuccine_alfredo_compleanno_116_anni-422080672/

@Cl3phact0: this reference you're proposing, since the title says "il piatto più buono del mondo", lit. 'the best dish in the world', in my opinion should be removed; too subjective. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The Repubblica piece does support a number of claims that are made in our article (as well as adding some nuance and detail). Thought it might be of some use to someone at some point. It's only here on the Talk page, not in the article itself – however, if you feel that it couldn't possibly be of any use to anyone in future (due to the wording of the title), by all means, remove it. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:50, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing in WikiPedia policy that prevents us from reporting on subjective opinions. In fact, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view says that we should report "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". Of course, we should not treat these opinions as "truth" but rather be sure to contextualize them. --Macrakis (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Two Three possible new articles (suggestion)

Our Carnacina & Buonassisi reference leads to two articles that we might want to add to enwiki: 1) Luigi Carnacina; 2) Vincenzo Buonassisi (I'll add them to my list, though it might take a while before I get to these). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: I agree. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding Luigi Vittorio Bertarelli (one of our 1920s references) to the above suggestions. [NB: Trecciani says: È stato il vero apostolo del turismo in Italia 'He was the true apostle of tourism in Italy' (which in retrospect may damn him for eternity, but he's clearly WP:N regardless).] -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Menu image

The illustration with caption "Ristorante Alfredo menu, 1920s" is copied from the restaurant's web site. I see no evidence that this menu cover is from the 1920s. It appears on the page [1] which is about the "origins" of fettuccine Alfredo, and has several undated photos, most of them clearly from later. Nowhere does it give a date for this menu cover. To my eye, the design of the menu doesn't look like it's from the 1920s, but I'm no specialist on the design of menus in Italy in the 1920s! --Macrakis (talk) 16:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

For Commons discussion re: source and permissibility of images, please see: Commons:Village pump/Copyright#Alfredo Di Lelio. Perhaps this should have been included earlier when adding the images (as the topic does seem to attract a fair bit of controversy). As for the timeframe, I'm comfortable with 1920s for the menu and teens for the photo of De Lelio (per multiple sources where these images can be found, such as this). I'll dig around a bit more too. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

PS: @Macrakis: If you're not comfortable with the "1920s" date in the caption, we could expand the range ("1920s or 1930s") or just remove the date until it can be confirmed with a better source. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't reopening the permissions issue, just pointing out the lack of evidence for the date in the original source. I suggest we remove the date until we have a decent source. --Macrakis (talk) 08:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Literally

In this edit, the "literally" template was restored in several places when I had replaced it with a simple gloss. The {{literally}} template, as opposed to the {{gloss}} template -- or simply 'single quotes' (cf. MOS:SIMPLEGLOSS) -- is useful when the literal translation and the actual meaning are different. For example, "cappellini lit. 'little hairs' is a kind of fine pasta". It isn't appropriate when the literal and the actual meaning are the same, e.g., "fettuccine al burro (lit. 'fettuccine with butter')", which should be "fettuccine al burro 'fettuccine with butter'" (with no parentheses). Also, rather than reverting other editors for things like this, it's better to discuss on Talk. --Macrakis (talk) 14:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Hallo @Macrakis:, attenzione! "cappellini lit. 'little hats'; "capellini lit. 'little hairs' ;-) Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 15:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course! Silly of me! --Macrakis (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

At some point we had the English translations in the main text, followed by a {{lang-it}} template for the original Italian. It's been changed and reverted a few times now (lit, gloss, trans and back again), so I'm a bit confused. My personal preference is English in the text (which I find more readable), followed by the original (using whatever template is correct/appropriate). As it is, we're a bit inconsistent throughout – with these, as well as italic usage, quotation marks and capitalisation. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@JackkBrown: Please do not keep changing/reverting other editors without explanation. Please read MOS:SIMPLEGLOSS. It appears that Macrakis has applied this correctly. If you feel that there is a reason that it should be ignored, then let's discuss it here. Honestly, the frustration of doing a round of edits to improve the article, only to return and see that you have "fixed" something that's just been done is rather a bore. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: so it's correct to ignore the punctuation... strange for an encyclopedia. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't profess to know what is "correct" for an encyclopaedia, however, the application of this encyclopaedia's guidance for simple gloss usage in the English language seems to have been properly applied in this case. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: punctuation must be included, but since you're the main contributor to this page I leave the choice to you. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Honestly don't know what's "right". I like one thing, Macrakis something else, and apparently you yet another. Macrakis's brief explanation above seems quite clear, no? I was willing to park the matter and go with that.

As I said above, the article is inconsistent throughout – with [glosses] italic usage, quotation marks and capitalisation (though getting better). Maybe an editor with fresh eyes would be so kind as to proofread the whole thing? Perhaps requesting that someone at WP:GOCE with particular expertise in these matters have a go, and/or adding a {Copyedit} tag might get someone else interested? To keep going back and forth is a waste of everybody's time.

I do think we ought to look at getting a WP:GA rating for this now. WP:RATER says "B or higher" with %98.5 probability (for what that's worth), so I've already set it at "B". Perhaps it should also have WP:VITAL status (Lasagne has this, so why not Fettuccine Alfredo)? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: OT: it would also be nice to work on other articles, such as pasta salad; we're working a lot on the fettuccine Alfredo page, and in my opinion it's already complete. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Going back to this: "My personal preference is English in the text (which I find more readable), followed by the original". We should use the English term only if it is commonly used in English. Otherwise, we should use the Italian term with a gloss, especially if is a fixed expression. For example, pasta in bianco 'plain pasta' explains the expression, and I don't think it's necessary to add lit. 'pasta in white'. Just "plain pasta" in English isn't quite right.... --Macrakis (talk) 10:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Noted. I had already come around to your point of view and think the second paragraph reads very well as is (see above: Macrakis's brief explanation above seems quite clear, no? I was willing to park the matter and go with that). JackkBrown had some issue with the punctuation. I also agree with you that the penultimate sentence of the paragraph is clear as written (pasta in bianco with no glosses or other technical flourishes).

While we're here, I'm not in love with the last clause of the first paragraph (on top or on the side) and think it could be left out – but I'm not going to make a fuss about it either. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: nothing "against" you, but in my opinion without punctuation is wrong, and it's a right of democracy to discuss (naturally, peacefully) about a rule that creates problems, in this case the lack of punctuation. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that you might have misunderstood. I simply said that I accepted the explanation. I'm not an expert and have no opinion other than we should do what best practice dictates. There are accepted rules for proper usage and Macrakis's explanation (plus MOS:SIMPLEGLOSS) seemed an authoritative summary of those rules. Also, if you keep reverting (punctuation, infobox bloat, overlink, etc.), the article will not be eligible for GA status (see WP:GAFAIL #4), which would be a shame after all the work that's been put into it. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cl3phact0: some rules aren't objectively perfect; in particular, this one should be improved. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Rules are neither objectively "perfect" nor objectively "wrong" -- they are conventions for stylistic consistency and clarity, and every publication has a slightly different style. In any case, the right place to discuss this is at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, where if you search the archives, you'll find considerable discussion of the issue. --Macrakis (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Removal of WP:RSSELF ref

@Macrakis: Well spotted! I hadn't noticed that Dorrance Publishing Company was a vanity press (duped by the ISBN number). The sub-title of the book in question summarises the central point that countless multitudes have tried to raise on this very Talk page over the years that I didn't think to dig deeper (emphasis is mine):

Pelli, Maurizio (2012). Fettuccine Alfredo, Spaghetti Bolognaise & Caesar Salad. The Triumph of the World's False Italian Cuisine. Pittsburgh, PA: Dorrance. ISBN 9781434917829.

Preserving it here for the record. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I haven't read the book, but it is strange that he groups Caesar salad with the other two. As far as I know, no one claims that Caesar salad was ever part of Italian cuisine. As far as we can tell, it was invented by an Italian restaurant owner in Mexico. And I don't think it's particularly associated with Italian-American cuisine. In fact, the only reference to Italy in our Caesar salad article is in the origin of the inventor, and the Italian-American cuisine article doesn't mention Caesar salad. Sure, it's served in Italian-American restaurants, but it's also served in almost every other American restaurant as well. --Macrakis (talk) 14:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)