Talk:Field deputy (Dutch Republic)

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@Robinvp11, @MWAK @Nederlandse Leeuw, @Palastwache. You all have contributed significantly to pages about Dutch military history or the Wars of Louis XIV so I would love for you guys to take a look at this new page. I have tried to represent the debate in a fair way, but I might have missed something and the origins parts still needs some expansion probably. DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 21:19, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks for writing this! Might I ask which words or terms were used in Dutch for these field deputies? And: the only time I have ever heard of people with such a function was in the context of the 1600 Battle of Nieuwpoort, in that they were a thorn in Maurice's side, as he felt it was an attempt by Oldenbarnevelt to politically control his battlefield manoeuvres. That might be worth mentioning in this article as well. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

PS: Landolt calls them gedeputeerden te velde, I'll add that to the opening sentence. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, in Dutch 'gedeputeerden te velde' is the correct term. And indeed, the part about Nieuwpoort certainly deserves a mention, but I am not to familliar with that campaign, so that will have to wait. DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 21:37, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I could look it up, I've got access to a lot of literature on the Eighty Years' War.

I was thinking whether the title of this article should be singular, Field deputy (Dutch Republic)? It is the norm. WP:PLURAL lists exceptions in which article titles should be plural, and I don't think "field deputies" fall under those rules. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:14, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

That would be great!

And about the title you seem to be correct. I don't know how to change a title tho DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 22:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

This very recent reference work mentions gedeputeerden te velde several times, but almost always during the stadtholderate of Frederick Henry. p. 216, 397, 403, 409, 412, 430.

Groenveld, Simon; Leeuwenberg, Huib (2020). De Tachtigjarige Oorlog. Opstand en consolidatie in de Nederlanden (ca. 1560–1650). Derde editie (in Dutch). Zutphen: Walburg Pers. p. 750. ISBN 9789462495661. (e-book; original publication 2008; in cooperation with M. Mout and W. Zappey). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:20, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

@DavidDijkgraaf Oh that's very easy. On the top right corner, to the right of the "View history" tab and the watchlist star, there is a tab named "More". You can hover over that and it will drop down the option "Move". You'll go to a screen where you will be asked what you'd like the new page name to be, and why. Good luck. :) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Done, thanks. And yes, the deputies seem to have been more of a talking point in the time of Frederick Henry, but Van Nimwegen also mentions them in the campaigns of Maurice. Just not in that much detail. DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

It's a good question when they first originated. I've just read the 3-page story in Het aanzien van een millennium (1999) about Nieuwpoort, and it doesn't mention field deputies. In fact, Oldenbarnevelt and several other members of the States-General were personally present during the campaign (I had forgotten that), so there wouldn't have been a need for deputies. Nevertheless, Groenveld & Leeuwenberg already mention gedeputeerden te velde in passing as playing a significant decision-making role in the 1589–1595 period: Steeds hadden de Staten-Generaal in feite het opperbevel gevoerd. Samen met de Raad van State hadden hun vertegenwoordigers, de gedeputeerden te velde, de operaties meegemaakt en beslissingen genomen. En na verovering van een stad hadden zij bemoeiing met de samenstelling van een nieuw, voor hen betrouwbaar stadsbestuur. I'm curious when they could have originated. I wouldn't push it back further than 1572. More likely, somewhere around 1577. I'd have to read that one guy about the Dutch States Army's formation again. Just a minute... Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Swart, Erik (2006). Krijgsvolk. Militaire professionalisering en het ontstaan van het Staatse leger, 1568–1590 (PDF) (in Dutch). Amsterdam: Amsterdam University Press. p. 278. ISBN 978-90-5356-876-7. Retrieved 14 August 2022. (Dissertation)

Swart 2006 was what I was looking for. He doesn't mention gedeputeerden te velde as such, but in some cases gedeputeerden are undoubtledly probably field deputies:

• p. 35: In het Noorderkwartier had ook Sonoy regelmatig conflicten met de burgerij in de steden die aan de zijde van Oranje stonden. Hij kreeg al in oktober 1572 door de Staten van Holland een tweetal gedeputeerden toegevoegd met wie hij moest overleggen over krijgszaken.

Sooo... October 1572 is quite early, but 1572 is what I expected to be the earliest year, because the States of Holland put themselves in charge of all affairs (including defence) for the first time in July 1572 at the so-called nl:Eerste Vrije Statenvergadering, so that was to be expected.

• p. 126: Daarop vaardigden de Staten van Holland in september 1576 zelf een ordonnantie op de criminele justitie uit, waarin zij de ‘Judicature Militaire’ weliswaar expliciet erkenden, maar beperkter dan voorheen. Het betrof slechts delicten die ‘sua natura’ geheel militair waren of door militairen onderling waren begaan. In deze gevallen moesten de soldaten ter berechting aan hun kapiteins overhandigd worden. Uitgezonderd waren muiterij, vechtpartijen tussen vendels, verraad en soortgelijke delicten die een gevaar voor de algemene rust en vrede vormden. Deze vielen onder Oranje, het Hof van Holland en gedeputeerden van de Staten.

This confirms that by September 1576, there were already deputies of the States (not to be confused with nl:Gedeputeerde Staten) accompanying armies in the field that had jurisdiction over certain military affairs such as mutiny, fights between companies, treason and similar crimes and reported to the States. Again I'm completely unsurprised that this happened in 1576/7 when the Spanish Fury was raging, and the civilian government would have wanted to strengthen its control over the military. But I had expected such an act to come from the States of Brabant, not the States of Holland, but perhaps something similar happened there around the same time? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

PS: I should caution that these may not actually have been so undoubtledly field deputies as I thought. gedeputeerde van de Staten as mentioned on p. 126 may be much more a political than military job. Context matters. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Nederlandse trofeeën uit drie oorlogen (Kerkhoven 1967) p. 9 claims that Anthonie Duyck was a gedeputeerden te velde of Maurice (during 1591–1602?), although I can't find other sources confirming that.

I do find an abundance of sources for later periods such as the Franco-Dutch War of the 1670s and the War of the Spanish Succession in the 1700s and 1710s. E.g. here's Verbaal van de gedeputeerde te velde Godard Adriaen van Reede, heer van Amerongen, betreffende de veldtocht langs de Maas. 1676 mei 16 - 1676 augustus 5. But we should probably be careful when extrapolating back titles of functions we know from later times back into periods where they didn't exist yet to avoid anarchonisms and invented traditions. But let's pick this topic back up another time. I think I'll leave it here fow now and call it a night. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2023 (UTC)