Talk:Filo

Apicius

Michael Fourman, thanks for your contributions.

In the literature on baklava and phyllo (see the baklava] article for full bibliography), Apicius's recipe is not mentioned. Do you have a good source for interpreting his recipe as phyllo-like rather than (say) pie-dough like? --Macrakis 13:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, going to the local Bosnian restaurant to verify that baklava is indeed made with phyllo-like dough might conceivably be considered to constitute original research, thus not conforming to wikipedia guidelines :), but trust me, it indeed is made with phyllo (btw, we in Croatia also call the stuf kore). --bonzi 16:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

See http://www.religioromana.net/romanrecipes.htm My copy of Apicius appears to be missing, so I can't check directly right now. — Michael Fourman 21:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, a random Web site calling itself the "Temple of Religio Romana" isn't a reliable source. And anyway, even this source says explicitly:

It is something like a precursor for lasagna, but closer to Greek pitas made with filo. ... sheets of filo, ... are not the same as what Cato used. Secondly, the recipe for placenta calls for alternating layers of tracta dough (which seems like fresh lasagna rather than phyllo) and a chesse mixture, that is, no fat between layers of dough which would create the flakiness. What exactly tracta was is actually a matter of dispute, and the name seems to have covered at least two different things, as described in Apicius and in Cato. Finally, working directly from primary sources like Apicius and Cato is original research. --Macrakis 18:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yufka

Michael Fourman, I believe 'yufka' has two distinct meanings in Turkish cooking, one a flatbread, the other phyllo. I have checked a couple of sources (e.g. Venice Lamb, The Home Book of Turkish Cookery; the Oxford Companion to Food s.v. 'filo') which agree that pastry yufka is not cooked. Perhaps you are unintentionally conflating bastilla, pastry yufka, and bread yufka? --Macrakis 13:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I buy yufka (made in Turkey) from my local Turkish deli in Edinburgh. It is definitely cooked, and can be used just like filo, but is thicker. If you look at Turkish recipes, you will find some that tell you to brush the yufka with yoghurt or chicken stock (rather than butter) when making a pie. Try this with uncooked filo and you just get a mess. Try it with yufka, and it behaves more like a very thin lasagna (with a different tecture and flavour. I have relatives living in Turkey, and will ask for confirmation and references. — Michael Fourman 21:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As a Turkish person I can confirm that those recipes actually refer to the uncooked (similar to phyllo) type of yufka. I should also note the word "yufka" mostly refers to the uncooked version(I checked this by referring to a couple of Turkish dictionaries). The cooked versions are generally called Lavash. Drigeolf (talk) 20:47, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Typo in article

"Güllaç, a Turkish dessert mostly eaten in the HOLLY month of Ramadan", should be "Güllaç, a Turkish dessert mostly eaten in the holy month of Ramadan".

Would be happy to fix this myself, but I really don't understand (haven't fully examined) how to edit articles (or 'when' it is considered ok to edit, etc.).

Filo as primary name?

Just a comment - in British usage I have never seen this stuff spelt 'phyllo', it is always 'filo' (which is what's used by the first two random books I pulled off my shelf, by Prue Leith and Rick Stein, and with 1710 Ghits on the BBC site alone compared to none for phyllo. I guess it's that old question - "phyllo" may be a better transliteration of the Greek word, but British Wikipedians at least will simply not have a clue what you're talking about. I suggest that the primary article resides at filo rather than phyllo. FlagSteward 03:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ditto86.174.137.225 (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

In Australia, one can find packaged "filo pastry" sheets in the freezer section of most local supermarkets. Just occasionally, a label will spell it "fillo". But I've never seen it spelt "phyllo"!

By the way, spelling words of Greek origin containing the letter /φ/ ("phi") is nothing but a neoclassicists' "aphphectation"!

yoyo (talk) 18:02, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Good luck with that. The article is completely dominated by Greek and Turkish nationalist editors with their own agendas. It's hard to believe this is the English Wikipedia sometimes. --Ef80 (talk) 17:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is -- this article is already at filo. According to Google n-grams, "phyllo" is about 3x more common than "filo" in US usage, and 10x less common in UK usage. And "yufka" (the Turkish name) is rarely used in English. --Macrakis (talk) 23:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

A Macedonian = vandal

the user A Macedonian is vandalizing my edits without citing a reason. camoka4

I messaged him and asked about the reason on his talk page. no response. he keeps vandalizing the article without any explanation. camoka4

I don't think this talk page is where you want to be accusing other editors. I believe that you would be much better off putting your reasons for your edits here and engaging in discussion rather than accusations.Wikipelli ^Talk 22:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi wikipelli, the word phyllo is a Turkic food whereas I added the word "Turkish" into the list of countries of Greece, Middle Eastern kitchen" .. is there anything wrong with that? I got no explanation for reverts so far. camoka4

You must be User:85.103.96.133. The reason I reverted you is that this particular info in the lede is about the transliteration of the Greek term, as I already explained in the summary. The Turkish term is already stated in the "History" section. Please pay attention, you are the vandal here. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 22:08, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

those translations are written not for transliteration, wikipedia doesn't write the origin for each article head, it's used for uses in several countries. I don't understand why you are deleting it. There is a clear nationalist orientation in your profile. are you acting with your feelings to undermine the countries that you hate? I thought wikipedia was supposed to give information, rather than propaganda. camoka

the vandalizing continues on talk page too. he keeps deleting my comments. camoka —Preceding undated comment added 22:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC).

See WP:Etymology for your question. Your edits are unconstructive and you also removed the translation of the Greek term. I will revert you again. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I think maybe both editors should take a break and let others weigh in. camoka you really don't help your case at all when you suggest that another editor is working in bad faith, and A Macedonian, I think the edit is a good faith edit so it doesn't do to call camoka a vandal.Wikipelli ^Talk 22:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's do that. However removing the translation of the etymon is a vandalism, not to mention the personal attacks... A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 22:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Check all the other articles about Balkans or Middle Eastern food, they write all the names in all those countries. I know why you are reverting. It's simple to see it from the nationalist propaganda in your profile. and it's not a personal attack to say that we must focus on contributing, rather than starting revert edits between neighboring countries who have the same food. cheers.camoka

You are 100% wrong, see here. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 22:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simit yeah I am "%100" wrong. lol. check out the link camoka4 —Preceding undated comment added 23:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC).

Oh, please, I never contributed on that article! In fact it's the first it comes to my attention. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 23:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say anything what you did/did not contribute to that article. In fact, I don't care what's first that comes to your attention either. the article "baklava" is not translated because it's the same word in all languages, whereas phyllo is not. I think now there is a consensus on this matter. if you still have any problems, please consult to administrators. thanks. camoka4 —Preceding undated comment added 23:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC).

Camoka4, A Macedonian, please stop accusing each other (and me!) of vandalism. There is a substantive dispute here, so let's discuss it calmly. It's true that some articles give long lists of non-English names for things in the lead. That is arguably appropriate where there is not a standard English name for an item (e.g. simit / koulouri), but is not generally the best approach. The Turkish name 'yufka' is rarely used in English, while phyllo/filo are the usual English names, and about 30x more common than either simit or koulouri. About the descriptions of the region, I agree that mentioning Greece and not Turkey seems unbalanced; but why not mention Middle Eastern and Balkan cuisine, which is more accurate and more inclusive, while not singling out particular countries? --Macrakis (talk) 00:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. But when did I accused you of vandalism?? A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Fine. Now I'm going to open a different chapter for etimology to end the confusion that the the greek letter is standing as if the word has only uses in Greece or so. do you agree with that? camoka4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.130.49 (talk) 13:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Source about phyllo's Central Turkisk origin (Culture In Russia And Central Asia, p.57)...

...refers to yufka, a flatbread; not phyllo. Yufka & phyllo are not one and the same thing; if one claims that (i.e. that phyllo is a kind of flatbread similar to yufka and of Central Turkish origin) then a citation of a source writing exactly that is required. Until then, that part has to go. 178.128.135.172 (talk) 22:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

There are two distinct things called 'yufka' in Turkish, the flatbread, which is discussed in the yufka article, and the pastry dough, which is discussed in this article. --Macrakis (talk) 23:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's a source discussing the relationship of the thick, cooked kind of yufka and the thin, uncooked kind:

Several of these ancient layered breads survive among the Turkish nations of modern Central Asia. The Uzbeks make a cake called poshkal from ten or 12 thinly rolled sheets of dough. The first layer is fried on one side and then turned over to fry on the other. While it cooks, a thin layer of sour cream is spread on the cooked surface, and this is covered with a second sheet of raw dough. When the first sheet is cooked on the bottom, this 'sandwich' is turned over and smeared with sour cream, and the process is repeated with more dought until a thick cake is built up.... The Uzbeks make a similar product called yupqa with a filling of ground meat fried with onions in the place of sour cream. The same word is used in Tatarstan on the Middle Volga (where it is pronounced yoka) for a sort of cake served with tea.... For a Tatar yoka, ten or 12 sheets of dough are fried and buttered and stacked up. And the same word is used in Turkey (where it is pronounced yufka) in the sense of a single sheet of filo.

--Perry, Charles. "The Taste for Layered Bread among the Nomadic Turks and the Central Asian Origins of Baklava", in A Taste of Thyme: Culinary Cultures of the Middle East (ed. Sami Zubaida, Richard Tapper), 1994. ISBN 1-86064-603-4, p. 89

"He is a regular participant at the Oxford Food Symposium." Lemme guess. Symposia were also invented in central Asia?--46.177.82.213 (talk) 20:27, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Hope that clarifies things. --Macrakis (talk) 17:13, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I concur with original poster about the source must go, see my discussion below, this source is not credible, and is talking about bread, not dough. Regardless it does not matter, because yufka is not special both as a dough and a bread. It is clear that bread migrated from the Middle East to Central Asia and not the other way around, and this is the most important factor in making the Charles Perry article not credible as well. I read the article by Charles Perry, I have the book, and he makes generalizations and assumptions, he does not cite any sources for his "research". Just because Uzbeks have a certain food it proves nothing, who is to say that they did not get the idea from the Middle East, and it is their version? What proof does Perry have that perhaps the real baklava one day made it to Central Asia and the Central Asians proceeded to make their own version which came out crude? "Culture In Russia And Central Asia" is speculation, as is "A Taste of Thyme" - both should not be used on wikipedia. Thinkfood (talk) 09:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The fall down of Wikipedia

Who may write or review an article? A sensate answer is a person who knows about the subject and can sustain its knowledge with bibliographical cites.

What is going on in wikipedia, everyone who thinks (s)he can modify anything, just does it.

I came here to see a recipe about filo dough, the variants the physical and chemical aspects, but I find a very superficial article, and stupid discussions.

The recipe of filo dough was in the strudel article, but was erased without discussion because "wikipedia is not a recipe book" here a discussion on the name. Yufka is filo in Turkey, cooked yufka is used as bread. I discovered that it in searching how to do filo dough in other more serious places in the web.

A cite to wikipedia is considered ridiculous because the lack of commitment in writing articles, vanity is wining and vanity from ignorant people who think they are the owner of this collective effort.

I have seen articles replacing a serious text with high school notes, plenty of errors.

I gave up in helping wikipedia with this attitude, and consider not a reliable source.

Keep ruining this beautiful romantic dream of collaboration, ego wins!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.140.244.228 (talk) 22:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree whole-heartedly, yet allow me to make a point. The reason that you ran into trouble in this article, is because of the Turkish nationalistic intention of hijacking all foods that are indigenous to Asia Minor (Armenian, Greek) as having miraculously come over from Central Asia, all while presumably the Greeks and Armenians ate nothing until the charitable Turks arrived from Central Asia to introduce all the wonderful foods that the whole world eats today. Look at the source even here for phyllo. Although it is a Greek name let's leave that for another discussion. Apparently "an early form" "comes from Central Asia", as in yufka, which is actually nothing more than a form of Armenian Lavash bread, which actually existed before the word "Turk" itself. Of course it is taboo to use such ideas here, because some people have decided that since Turks live in Asia Minor today, and since they came from Central Asia, then all foods which they hijacked from the indigenous peoples must also come from Central Asia, of course at the expense of truth and reality. Welcome to the world of Turkish Nationalist Rhetoric, and it's rape and plunder of wikipedia.Thinkfood (talk) 00:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Instead of just complaining, why don't you find some good, solid sources? I have actually looked for good sources in a variety of places (not just online), and it's very hard to find serious sources based on real research. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims floating around, but not much solid work. Perry, whatever his flaws, seems to have done some real research, and has no obvious axe to grind. --Macrakis (talk) 01:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

History and Tukrish Propaganda

Unless a credible source is found, I want all instances of the word "Turkic" and "Central Asian" removed from the history section. If these terms stay, then I want ALL Middle Eastern peoples mentioned in it too one by one with their own versions. The "source" being used is unworthy and false. "An early, thick form of phyllo appears to be of Central Asian Turkic origin." Yeah, right! And where does it say that? The cited source says "The Central Asian Turks had numerous grain-based foods" - Oh, and the Armenians and Greeks living in Asia Minor at least 3,000 years before any Turk stepped into Asia Minor had NO GRAIN BASED FOODS, huh? Speaking of which, how come the (traditional)Mongols don't have grain-based foods, yet magically the Turks who are from the same region, and ethnic cousins do? Surely the Turkic Central Asians who "invented" every known food to man should have somehow given a few such foods to the Mongols and Chinese. This source using 11th century "Arab dictionary" states Turks also contributed kebabs. Really? A food eaten in Asia Minor since at least the Roman times when Turks did not exist? Then it says Turks had these foods based on "sedentary lifestyle". How are Turks who were in constant migration in the 11th century from Central Asia to Asia Minor and in constant wars with no homes but tents "sedentary"? It does not make sense. The opposite is true. This shows us one thing at least - this source is definitely not credible. "Food Culture In Russia And Central Asia" must be deleted from this article, it offers contradictory and unreliable information. In this false source it also stated chorek is Turkish - how is that Turkish? This is a traditional Armenian bread made for Easter. And speaking of flat-bread, there is no flatter, nor thinner bread than Armenian Lavash. If you people want to explore and cite an "early form of phyllo" that is where you start, with Armenian Lavash. Otherwise you can also search and easily find Greek sources as the possible origin of phyllo. Thinkfood (talk) 08:57, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed claim not supported by given source. Macedonian (talk) 10:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The Perry article is the principal source for the history of baklava and phyllo -- did you read it? I have added an in-line citation for it here. The baklava article goes into some more detail, using more sources.

You say you have good sources for the Greek origin of phyllo -- could you please tell us what they are instead of just alluding to them? As for lavash, it is a flatbread, yes, but that is not the same thing as a multi-layered pastry -- do you have a reliable source connecting lavash to phyllo and baklava? --Macrakis (talk) 16:10, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree with your approach here. Instead of approaching this article objectively, you are all to eager to reinforce a dubious article with another dubious one. I already told you that Perry's research is based on speculation, and not credible sources. I read Perry's article. I am not convinced. When Perry uses terminology like "it is quite possible Turks invented layered bread blah blah blah" that is not a credible source, nor is it research, nor is it an appropriate source for an encyclopedia. What more is there to say? How did you determine that Perry's article is a "credible source"? For some odd reason, you are taking this article on baklava by Perry and treating it as "proof" of Turkic origins of everything else too including phyllo. Perhaps the Turks also invented walnuts and honey? If you are really interested in the history of phyllo, then why aren't you seeking out Greek sources, but instead the same old song and dance about dubious claims of Central Asian Turkic origins? Given that the Greeks will tell you that baklava is Greek in origin and the Turks claim the same thing, history starts with culture, and Greek culture (as well as Armenian and Assyrian) is several thousand years older than Turkic culture, that is all we need to know to treat "Central Asian" origin theories with suspicion and doubt. Nothing of any importance has ever proven to be of "Central Asian" origin, and I guarantee you food is not the exception. Central Asia is a cross-roads between West and East, not the Cradle of Civilization. To me it is quite clear phyllo has no connection to "yufka", if it does, then it has a connection to all other flat breads. Layering dough by Turkic people is merely a claim, the Assyrians also layered their dough, there are plenty of articles discussing the Assyrian concept of layering bread with walnuts and honey - probably the true starting point of the early baklava. Thinkfood (talk) 17:09, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I am using the Perry article because it's the best source I've found. It is a serious article, with good documentation, by a serious researcher, published in a serious collection. Perry is also the one who was chosen by the editors of the Oxford Companion to Food to cover baklava and phyllo. As far as I know, the OCF and Perry have no a priori preference for one origin or another; you on the other hand seem to have an axe to grind.

As for "proof", there are very few things in food history where there is ironclad proof, and I certainly don't claim that the Perry article is the last word on phyllo and baklava. Food history is a relatively recent discipline, and it is hard to find good sources. If you have better sources, please contribute them instead of vaguely suggesting that I "seek out Greek sources". I have looked for better sources, and not found them. In particular, Andrew Dalby (who has written on ancient and Byzantine food) and Claudia Roden (who writes on Arab food) have found no references to phyllo or baklava before the arrival of the Turks.

As for the "history starts with culture" etc. etc., I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove. As for "plenty of articles discussing the Assyrian concept of layering bread with walnuts and honey", again, instead of simply saying they exist, why don't you provide citations which we can discuss? --Macrakis (talk) 19:18, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Exposing Turkish lies, fairy tales, and dishonesty is not "having an axe to grind" - your claim is irrelevant, yet I can say that about your approach to all the "Turkish food" articles you show up in, where you are all too eager to pursue dubious concepts of how every food Turks eat somehow magically is connected to "Central Asia". And yet nearly all the foods the Turks eat in reality is part of the cuisines of Armenia and Greece and not all other Central Asian countries. I do not need a "source" in this instance, because one does not need an external opinion to verify something as simple and clear as the light of day. You Turks on wikipedia on the other hand, abuse the notion of the sourcing of wikipedia policy and seek out Turko-centric articles to use and abuse as reality and bogus claims of "Central Asian" origins to everything you can think of. Just because a book is published, it does not mean it can be used as a legitimate source. Now you are also ignoring what I've told you about the article in question, and I plainly pointed out to you the DIRECT QUOTE from the article: "it is quite possible Turks invented layered bread". With this in mind you go on to state "It is a serious article, with good documentation, by a serious researcher, published in a serious collection" - Excuse me, BUT I BEG TO DIFFER! It is also POSSIBLE the Arabs invented layered bread. It is also POSSIBLE the Armenians invented layered bread. It is also POSSIBLE the Greeks invented layered bread. It is also POSSIBLE the Kurds invented layered bread. Do you understand this very BASIC point I'm trying to make? This article is not being followed by enough people with an honest and sober intent towards foods of Asia Minor, otherwise this biased book you champion at every opportunity would not stand a chance af being taken seriously. Thinkfood (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I will be editing the main page and change the reference to "Armenian" Lavash, since it is a Middle Eastern food and as usual it is extremely hard to find evidence who found it first. Lavash is made from a simple dough(flour, water and salt) which is then flattened and baked. Not exactly a very complicated recipe that is hard to remember which would require someone to write it down. It is currently made in the Middle East, Caucasus and Eastern Europe and there is no need to further complicate this issue by that unfounded addition. I also don't see how this is different than Turkish nationalists that ties everything to Central Asia. Apparently when Turks do it, it is bad(which I wholeheartedly agree) but when Armenians try to cram their nationalist "every food made in Anatolia/Middle East is Armenian" nonsense it apparently is fine. Drigeolf (talk) 21:08, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Oscet

What the hell is oscet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.41.120.216 (talk) 10:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. This was vandalism, and I've removed it. --Macrakis (talk) 01:04, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute, Agenda

User:Piledhighandeep entered Wikipedia on changes in the Baklava article and continues with articles like this one that may affect the outcome of the discussion in the Baklava article. I find this really very regretful because they did not change their attitude against the background of so many older discussions on these issues that one may see in the archives and the very sincere efforts of User:Alessandro57 to try to convince them. Now, they are trying to "prove" the origins of filo. (So many gastronomy writers had to wait for this user to come and bring their new theory.) Their last addition to this article does not consider one I made to the baklava article only yesterday. I only wish to ask them why? Did you not read it? You have been busy with the baklava issue from your first moment in WP. If I found (sorry, "pointed to", anybody could have found it) a very good source on the origin of filo; why did not you add it here but began to make a synthesis? That means you are not so much interested in the truth itself but in trying to convince others to your personal theory. This much is enough for people who are intelligent enough to participate here; even more so for a person with a PhD. Thanks and regards. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 04:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

This NPOV dispute is related to the NPOV dispute on the baklava history page, also involving myself and the above user, along with several others. Please see the Talk discussion there for more information. The following is the disputed passage: Another theory is that layered dough dishes were native to the ancient populations of the Near East and Greece. Servants, including cooks, in the Ottoman Topkapı Palace were recruited from the native non-Muslim inhabitants of the empire through the devşirme system, and there are ancient antecedents from the region for many modern filo based layered dough dishes, for instance modern tyropita, which has as an ancient Greek antecedent Artemithoros' "plakountas tetyromenous,", and the Roman-era layered dough dessert "koptoplakous" (κοπτοπλακοῦς) discussed by the classical author Athenaios in book XIV his Deipnosophistae. The latter was, according to some scholars, similar to modern baklava. The 8th century BC Homeric poet Hesiod refers to a "thin wrapped cake full of sesame and seeds" that is one of the earliest records suggestive of a filo-based dough dessert. Piledhighandeep (talk) 05:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Then I have to ask you openly: Are you here to discover the truth or you already found it and want others to believe you? Got a mirror at home? Look at it and reply to yourself. I am tired of discussing with a person who came here for a specific reason. I have other articles to edit, copy edit, discuss etc. Take care. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 05:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

You could ask the same question of yourself. You assume that I am the one who needs to "discover the truth" and that "you already found it." We should both be trying to discover the truth on these topics, and I am quite sure that neither of us has totally found it yet. It would be more productive for you to read the many references listed here and in the baklava article and tell me why you don't think those authors and scholars arguments are worth including. I am not advocating deleting the arguments and citations of alternative theories. Let the reader see both well-supported theories for themselves. Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Can we wait until the discussion on baklava (which is directly related to this) is done?Piledhighandeep (talk) 08:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Inserting a POV tag into an article where there has been extensive discussion in the past (worth reviewing) on exactly these points is not very helpful. I have removed it.

The point made in the baklava article about plakountas tetyromenous is interesting, but I don't think Rena Salaman's article is a very solid source. Let's keep looking for better sources. --Macrakis (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is another source for plakountas tetyromenous (ultimately from Artemidoros' "Dream Translations") and plakountas entyritas (from the Byzantine Lexika) Davidson (2014). The Oxford Companion to Food. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 363., but looking at Davidson's citations I think it traces back to Rena Salaman again (in this case her 1993 book "Greek Food"). Piledhighandeep (talk) 06:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the "Greece" article in the Oxford Companion is by Salaman (RSa) and the "baklava" and "filo" articles are by Perry (CP), so they're not really independent sources.

The issue with the various plakountas is that it is likely a generic name, like "pie" or "cake", and there may well have been many variants. After all, it originally means "something flat", a "placenta", and in fact there is a Roman placenta cake (the Latin word placenta being a borrowing from the Greek) which consists of cheese and honey on dough -- maybe that is what plakountas tetyromenous was. Or maybe not. The modern Romanian plăcintă can be made with different kinds of pastry, not usually filo as far as I can tell. So until we have some positive evidence, there's no reason to assume that plakountas tetyromenous was made with something like filo rather than bread dough (like pizza) or pie crust (shortcrust pastry) or crushed sesame (halva), just because there is a modern cheese pie, tyropita or peynirli börek which happens to be made with filo. --Macrakis (talk) 15:19, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Here is a recipe for Roman cheese placenta. It has multiple layers, but it seems to be multiple layers of pasta and cheese, something like lasagna (as I mentioned in 2007 further up in this Talk). Again, I don't know how that compares to what Artemidoros is talking about, but it certainly doesn't support the notion that he was talking about a filo-based dish. --Macrakis (talk) 15:29, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

A major difference is that placenta - according to Cato`s recipe - is made with flour and semolina, in 2 to 1 proportion. Alex2006 (talk) 15:42, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

The placenta information is interesting. I wish I had noticed the lasagna discussion earlier in this Talk before. Since consensus seems to be that the baked paper thin pastry (filo) was an Ottoman palace innovation anyway, there won't be anything exactly like filo in any pre-Ottoman antecedent (Central Asian or local). I don't see why an indigenous, baked, multiple layered, nut/honey or cheese dish separated by pasta-type semolina dough (like lasagna) is an any worse (or better) contender for the dish that inspired Topkapı cooks to create layered, baked filo dishes than an unbaked, pan fried, thin bread based, Central Asian dish. I really think Perry is speculating in choosing the latter theory (a theory which has some strengths and some weaknesses), just as much as any other secondary author we are considering (Rena Salaman or Vryonis). The strength of the antecedents put forward by the latter authors is that they seem to span the types of dishes used with filo today in the same region (nut/honey, cheese, etc), and they were baked. The strengths of the former (Perry) theory is that the Central Asian thin bread was definitely not semolina based. It seems to me each author has decided to put forward one theory for the origin as most likely (as the WP article currently does too), perhaps because readers prefer an answer to uncertainty. However, I still personally think uncertainty is what we actually have here. Piledhighandeep (talk) 01:53, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the layered placenta information is suggestive. However, I don't know of a reliable source that explicitly makes the argument that placenta and baklava are connected (rather than just an aside that assumes it). It is certainly plausible that the placenta tradition (which must have been known in Constantinople/Istanbul) and the folded flatbread tradition converged and were developed into baklava. But adding that theory to the article would be original research on our part.

I also agree that we have a lot of uncertainty. That is why the baklava article's history section says "Although the history of baklava is not well documented, there is evidence that its current form was developed in the imperial kitchens of the Topkapı Palace in Istanbul based on a Central Asian Turkic tradition of layered breads." Note "there is evidence that" and not "we know that". Other wording is possible, e.g., "the best-documented hypothesis for the origin of baklava is...." etc.

Also, some one should check the Koukoules reference, which Vryonis depends on -- as far as I can tell Vryonis himself didn't do any research on the topic. What exactly does Koukoules say? Does he present a solid argument? What evidence does he adduce? --Macrakis (talk) 14:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparently "Around the Roman Table: Food and Feasting in Ancient Rome" (1994) by Patrick Faas, which is the second listed general reference under the WP Ancient Roman cuisine article, so perhaps it qualifies as reliable, explicitly makes the argument that baklava and placenta are connected. (The argument must appear on p. 185, according to the book's index, but I cannot view that particular page on Google Books.) John F. Donahue (the Classics Dept. chair at William and Mary) says in his review of the book (found here, http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2003/2003-11-08.html) "furthermore, F. is able to draw upon his wide culinary expertise to make connections between ancient dishes and their modern descendants. I did not know, for example, that Roman placenta, a pastry dish, is likely related to baklava." I found Koukoules V. 1 in the library, but not V. 5, which is what we need.

I find Cato's original recipe interesting, because it involves 1) greasing each layer of dough, 2) layering the filling, then another piece of dough etc, and 3) smothering the finished product, once baked, in honey, (this translation from Cato's "On Agriculture" comes from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cato/De_Agricultura/E*.html )-- "Recipe for placenta: Materials, 2 pounds of wheat flour for the crust, 4 pounds of flour and 2 pounds of prime groats for the tracta. Soak the groats in water, and when it becomes quite soft pour into a clean bowl, drain well, and knead with the hand; when it is thoroughly kneaded, work in the 4 pounds of flour gradually. From this dough make the tracta, and spread them out in a basket where they can dry; and when they are dry arrange them evenly. Treat each tractum as follows: After kneading, brush them with an oiled cloth, wipe them all over and coat with oil. When the tracta are moulded, heat thoroughly the hearth where you are to bake, and the crock. Then moisten the 2 pounds of flour, knead, and make of it a thin lower crust. Soak 14 pounds of sheep's cheese (sweet and quite fresh) in water and macerate, changing the water three times. Take out a small quantity at a time, squeeze out the water thoroughly with the hands, and when it is quite dry place it in a bowl. When you have dried out the cheese completely, knead it in a clean bowl by hand, and make it as smooth as possible. Then take a clean flour sifter and force the cheese through it into the bowl. Add 4½ pounds of fine honey, and mix it thoroughly with the cheese. Spread the crust on a clean board, one foot wide, on oiled bay leaves, and form the placenta as follows: Place a first layer of separate tracta over the whole crust, cover it with the mixture from the bowl, add the tracta one by one, covering each layer until you have used up all the cheese and honey. On the top place single tracta, and then fold over the crust and prepare the hearth . . . then place the placenta, cover with a hot crock, and heap coals on top and around. See that it bakes thoroughly and slowly, uncovering two or three times to examine it. When it is done, remove and spread with honey. " (emphasis mine) Piledhighandeep (talk) 02:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually, when I baked placenta some years ago I also tought that with some nuts or pistachios to ricotta and honey this would have been a perfect proto-baklava, but unfortunately mine was OR: and then, of course, there is always the Post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. Alex2006 (talk) 05:31, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

You mean you are a rooster, Alex2006? (I hope you're not calling anybody a rooster... :-) --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 05:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Only with my wife... :-) Alex2006 (talk) 06:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

You had a good idea about placenta. Here is some non-OR. Around the Roman Table: Food and Feasting in Ancient Rome - Patrick Faas is the second listed work under the "References" section of the Ancient Roman cuisine wikipedia article. It was published by the University of Chicago Press in 2003. The section on placenta states,

"Placenta, then, was made of layers of sheep's cheese alternating with layers of thin tracta. The whole thing was baked in pastry dough. The dish looks like the predecessor of modern baklava, except that nowadays the sheep's cheese would be replaced with nuts. The Greeks and the Turks still argue over which dishes were originally Greek and which Turkish. Baklava, for example, is claimed by both countries. Greek and Turkish cuisine both built upon the cookery of the Byzantine Empire, which was a continuation of the cooking of the Roman Empire. Roman cuisine had borrowed a great deal from the ancient Greeks, but placenta (and hence baklava) had a Latin, not a Greek, origin--please note that the conservative, anti-Greek Cato left us this recipe. Also, placenta played a traditional role in ancient Roman religion." (Patrick Faas, 2003, p. 185)

Faas states, "Placenta... is frequently mentioned in literature. It was the base for various other kinds of sweetmeat made from the same ingredients--dough, tract, fresh cheese and honey." Here is Faas' translation of Cato's ancient recipe for Roman placenta (Faas, p.184),

"Placenta is made like this: take 2 pounds of flour for the crust and make tracta with 2 pounds of alica and 4 pounds of spelt flour…Mix the 2 pounds of flour with water and knead to make a thin base dough. Soak 14 pounds of sheep's cheese, not sour but very fresh, in water. Knead and change the water three times. Take a piece of cheese, squeeze it dry and put it in the mortar. When all the cheese has dried knead it by hand in the clean mortar, and make it as fine as possible. Then take a clean flour-sieve and press the cheese back into the mortar through the sieve. Add 4 pounds of good honey, and mix it well with the cheese. Then place the base dough, 1 four wide, on greased bay-leaves on a clean baking tray. Shape the placenta as follows: place a single row of tracta along the whole length of the base dough. This is then covered with the mixture from the mortar. Place another row of tracta on top and go on doing so until all the cheese and honey have been used up. Finish with a layer of tracta. Fold the base dough as a cover and a decoration over the contents and prick little air holes. Then place the placenta in the oven and put a preheated lid on top of it. Place hot ashes around and on top of it. Remove the lid two or three times to ensure that everything is going well. When ready, honey is poured over the placenta. That is how one makes a 4.3 litre placenta. " (Cato R.R. LXXCI as cited in Faas)

(As an aside, note that the base dough, which was folded over the top, was thicker then the tracta layers, suggesting that around this filo-like pastry there was an additional stable outer-shell, like that of a calzone, which is what Faas was referring to when he stated "the whole thing was baked in pastry dough." Perhaps this outer dough shell added convenience?) Piledhighandeep (talk) 04:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

yufka

its clone of ancient turkish yufka.not a greek product.like feta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.252.66.174 (talk) 10:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

What kind of flour?

What grain is used? Is it wheat? Can it be multi-grain? 2600:1003:B01F:672E:0:30:11DA:DA01 (talk) 13:23, 26 December 2016 (UTC)