Talk:Finalissima

Status as a friendly competition

There seems to be controversy over whether the trophy is a friendly or not. The article cites media reports talking about a possible friendly competition. I think this is insufficient to brand the trophy as a friendly trophy. Media can sometimes get details wrong in early reports, especially when the trophy had not been officially revealed. For example, one of the sources says it is a "series of matches" when in fact, it was only one match. Another article links a statement from UEFA as a source, but UEFA never referred to it as a friendly in that statement. In fact, UEFA has the competition listed among its official competitions on its website, and does not ever say it is a friendly. https://www.uefa.com/finalissima/

In addition, an official UEFA twitter account and several media specifically referred to this competition as Messi's "second international trophy." However, he has won two other friendly competitions in the past, plus one competitive, making this one his fourth overall. It is only second as far as competitive competitions go. Some examples follow:

https://twitter.com/ChampionsLeague/status/1532145965888684037 https://twitter.com/brfootball/status/1532108427421433856 https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1532100566494728193 https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/lionel-messi-argentina-italy-finalissima-27127196 https://dailypost.ng/2022/06/02/messi-wins-second-international-trophy-within-one-year-for-argentina/ https://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news/articles/international/categories/messi-ronaldo-neymar-watch-1/pictures-lionel-messi-wins-second-international-trophy-with-argentina/718400 https://www.republicworld.com/sports-news/football-news/lionel-messi-equals-cristiano-ronaldos-international-record-after-finalissima-triumph-articleshow.html

There may be some debate to be had, I'm trying to be fair here, but I think it needs to be decided by a logical consensus. At the moment, the page provides insufficient evidence to categorize it the way it does. Barring an official statement from the relevant authorities, we should be skeptical of making a conclusion that is not fully supported by evidence as the current article does.

73.129.216.145 (talk) 20:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

 Comment. . For FIFA (maximun governing body) the match was register as friendly, it's a friendly with name: Finalissima. Can work that we indicate that it is friendly for FIFA or "official title single leg match" by Uefa (cause the Confederations Cup ceased to exist). Remember that the editions are not final and can be modified (modified to improve, editions are not final, are preliminaries).--Rey1996ss (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Having read a little bit on this topic since leaving that comment, here are my thoughts.

1. FIFA has never called it a friendly. What they have done is given it coefficient points similar to a friendly. However, people are jumping to conclusions in my view.

2. UEFA has called it an official trophy. All 3 editions are considered official.

3. The Intercontiental Cup is a good precedent. According to Wikipedia, it was also organized by UEFA and CONMEBOL and not FIFA. FIFA in fact tried to get UEFA and CONMEBOL to call it a friendly, but UEFA and CONMEBOL never did. Eventually, FIFA accepted it as an official precursor to their own competition (The Club World Cup). However, even before then, the competition was always listed on Wiki pages as an official trophy for the clubs that won it.

My conclusion is this, under no circumstances is it a friendly since it was played competitively. The question is whether it is officially recognized by FIFA, which FIFA has not declared either way in the matter. However, using the precedent of the intercontinental cup, it would be highly unusual to consider it anything but official, as it is clearly a precedent (same situation, just for clubs rather than countries) and it was never considered a friendly on wiki or anywhere else. Also, the idea of a game being retroactively labeled a friendly or official (as FIFA recognized the Intercontinental cup only later) makes no sense. The players and managers act according to the rules (friendly rules or official rules), they do not play according to a future decision whether something will or won't be considered a friendly. The match was played under official rules, therefore it is not a friendly.

73.129.216.145 (talk) 13:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

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Requested move 29 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per Wikipedia:Recentism. (closed by non-admin page mover) 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 22:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

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CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions → Finalissima – The title name "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions" is reported to be the new name of the trophy, instead of the name of the tournament. As same as European Champion Clubs' Cup. It should not be the name here. KyleRGiggs (talk) 11:58, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. S.A. Julio (talk) 13:54, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The previous name of this article was "Artemio Franchi Trophy", so given the trophy was renamed to the "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions", it makes sense to use as the title. The 2022 match is branded with the Italian word "Finalissima" given Italy are a participant. However, I see no indication this is the permanent name of this competition. I find it unlikely that the name would still be used if the next edition were between, say, Brazil and Germany. We should not be moving the article every 4 years depending on the marketing name used by UEFA/CONMEBOL. S.A. Julio (talk) 14:03, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per SAJ. GiantSnowman 14:20, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per SAJ.--Island92 (talk) 14:45, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per SAJ, "Finalissima" is just a branding for the 2022 event, not the new normal name for the competition. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Official Final

Official Final, annouced by CONMEBOL and UEFA 176.74.68.113 (talk) 22:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Name

On Uefa official website, in the list of the competitions for national teams there is the finalissima and not the Uefa-Conmebol Cup of Champions, same thing for the Women's Finalissima since it's impossible would be a branded name for the title of this year between England and Brazil. Same for the Futsal Finalissima So the word Finalissima is in the official logo of both competition (men's, women's and then in futsal). Following the partnership of Uefa and Conmebol the official name of the revival Artemio Franchi Trphy is Finalissima. So I think we need to creat a new page for this new competition calling it with the official used name Finbalissima instead of Uefa-Conmebol Cup of Champions. 93.43.109.210 (talk) 11:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved, in accordance with User:Mazewaxie's reasoning. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 07:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

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CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions → Finalissima – Despite being closed per Wikipedia:Recentism last time, it is now already a year and a half. Finalissma is not only for CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions, but also women, youth and futsal. It seems Finalissma to be the unified name for the CONMEBOL-UEFA champion tournaments. KyleRGiggs (talk) 03:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Not the official name. That was only the name of the 2022 edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Finalissima --FMSky (talk) 14:34, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 19:47, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - this refers to a historical competition known by this name, the 2022 edition having a different name is not reason to change. GiantSnowman 19:50, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

  Nope. The historical name was Artemio Franchi Cup. The name of the current title reflects to the current trophy only. KyleRGiggs (talk) 01:26, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - the current name is correct. The 2022 edition knows as Finalissina.--Island92 (talk) 12:52, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions is the official name. Finalissima was used for the 2022 edition only. If future editions of the competion will also be labeled as Finalissima then we could reconsider it. --Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 13:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

In favour. Just because the current title is the official one, nobody can argue that (especially after over 30 years since the last edition) the title Finalissima hat caught on much more than the official title. I even argue that most people don't even know Finalissima isn't the official one. Finalissima for that matter is also much more searched for than CONMEBOL-UEFA Cup of Champions (11.9 mio. vs. 336,000), and Wikipedia should always try to reflect the reality of what people are referring to when they talk about that tournament, not prescribing what people should say. Even UEFA and CONMEBOL themselves brand the tournament as Finalissima. So why should Wikipedia do it any differently? We also don't call the football player Edson Arantes do Nascimento, but by the name Pelé, don't we? -- SdHb (talk) 12:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Raúl Quintana Tarufetti

@Raúl Quintana Tarufetti: "Official" doesnt need to be stated as this is already assumed. We dont even include it in the article UEFA Champions League --FMSky (talk) 02:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not assumed it´s official, beacause many users "think" that it´s a friendly tournament, and it´s not... It´s the same thing that happends in the Intercontinental Club Cup, that was organised only by UEFA and CONMEBOL (official cup of course), but FIFA (before the creation of the Fifa World cup club) gave the "endorsement" to recognise the winner as "World Champions". --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 02:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

In addition, look at this [1]. Many people think it´s a friendly cup and it is not... I think we must clarify it´s official. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 02:56, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

No one who reads this article is gonna assume: "Oh, so it doesnt state 'official', it must be a friendly!". this is not a logical thought process --FMSky (talk) 03:00, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

It´s your opinion, but in the spanish wikipedia it was a polemic about the "officialdom" of this cup too. Many users thought it was a friendly cup... Here, in the english wiki it happened too [2]. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 03:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we should wait other opinions of many other users. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 03:15, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Article Name and Structure

I do not understand how the December move request was opposed. Per Wikipedia:Article titles, the title should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent.

The majority of the sources in the article uses Finalissima or Artemio Franchi Cup (which I hope we can agree is an outdated name), and very little refer to it as the "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions".

In fact source 1 of the article states that the "Cup of Champions" refers to the trophy and "Finalissima" is the tournament.

Even a Google search of "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions" gives you results on the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup and European Rugby Champions Cup with ESPN the only major site that (outside of Wikipedia) that returns this tournament.

Google "Finalissima" on the otherhand and it returns results for this tournament from sites such as Sky Sports, BBC, The Guardian, and most importantly UEFA.

The women's and fustal version of the tournament have been named "Finalissima". So why isn't the men's if article naming is supposed to be consistent? Mn1548 (talk) 19:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. --Raúl Quintana Tarufetti (talk) 00:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. consensus for WP:COMMONNAME. (closed by non-admin page mover) Frost 15:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

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CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions → Finalissima – I do not understand how the December move request was opposed. Per Wikipedia:Article titles, the title should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent.

The majority of the sources in the article uses Finalissima or Artemio Franchi Cup (which I hope we can agree is an outdated name), and very little refer to it as the "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions".

In fact source 1 of the article states that the "Cup of Champions" refers to the trophy and "Finalissima" is the tournament.

Even a Google search of "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions" gives you results on the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup and European Rugby Champions Cup with ESPN the only major site that (outside of Wikipedia) that returns this tournament.

Google "Finalissima" on the otherhand and it returns results for this tournament from sites such as Sky Sports, BBC, The Guardian, and most importantly UEFA.

The women's and fustal version of the tournament have been named "Finalissima". So why isn't the men's if article naming is supposed to be consistent? Mn1548 (talk) 08:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - As I stated back in December 2023, CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions is the official name. Finalissima was used for the 2022 edition only, and is not clear if the name will be used again in the future. If the 2025 edition of the competion will also be labeled as Finalissima, then we should reconsider it.

Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 09:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

As I stated in my proposal, there is NOTHING in the sourced material on this page that suggests "Finalissima" was the name for the 2022 edition only. All sourced material suggests the contrary. No media outlets are calling the 2025 edition "CONMEBOL–UEFA Cup of Champions", all are referring to next year's edition as "Finalissima" [3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] Mn1548 (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

All those report are based on no official statement. UEFA and CONMEBOL are yet to announce the 2025 edition. I would wait until then. Anyway, I am changing my stance to a weak oppose. Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 08:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - as above. The current name is correct.

RavenRTC (talk) 09:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Per what source, almost all sourced material on this page states the name of the competition is "Finalissima", and to repeat what I said in my move proposal In fact source 1 of the article states that the "Cup of Champions" refers to the trophy and "Finalissima" is the tournament. Mn1548 (talk) 10:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

ESPN is the ONLY source I can find that refers to it as the "Cup of Champions". Mn1548 (talk) 10:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This is evidently for branding purposes. This was mentioned in a previous discussion, and the 2022 edition was branded with the Italian word "Finalissima" given Italy were a participant. While it is still called "Finalissima" by the outlets you mentioned, there is still no indication that is what it will be called from every edition onwards, including one's that will not include Italy. Therefore, the title should remain as its current name until later clarification. RavenRTC (talk) 13:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Where's the evidence? Genuine question, where? The whole notion that "Finalissima" is a brand name for 2022 only and future tournament's will have a different name is WP:CRYSTAL. It would have been like trying to argue in 2021 that the UEFA Europa Conference League shouldn't be called that because we don't know if the second season will have the same name. As stated on the Brand identity revealed "CONMEBOL – UEFA Cup of Champions" refers to the trophy of the competition, and there is NOTHING that states it was given the Italian title for 2022 only as Italy were played, which is further evident by the fact the women's and fustal tournaments are also called the "Finalissima". The vast majority of WP:RS refer to the tournament as "Finalissima", I'm yet to see any that supports the claim it was a branding name for 2022 only. Mn1548 (talk) 14:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Support, RSs refer to 2025 as Finalissima, its official name carries no weight per WP:Official name Kowal2701 (talk) 11:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Support, no notoriety of the 'official name'. (talk) 16:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Support, Finalissima is the more common name. News articles have already started calling the 2025 match using that name.

Fox Sports - Messi and Lamine Yamal to Face Off in Finalissima

BeIN Sports - Messi and Lamine Yamal to Face Off in Finalissima Skratata69 (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per skratata Yoblyblob (Talk) :) 04:24, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 20:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per 2 previous RM discussions, no new sources or arguments are convincing. I note that there are far more participants in this discussion than the previous ones, many of whom edit only infrequently, and I have serious concerns about canvassing, likely off-wiki. GiantSnowman 20:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  People come here through WP:RM#Current discussions? Kowal2701 (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

  The fact that the Euros and Copa American tournaments just completed could be driving a lot of traffic. The next logical match is the Finalissima after all. Skratata69 (talk) 03:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

  The 1st RM Discussion was opposed based off the argument that the "2022 edition was called "Finalissima" for branding purposes only" to which the sources to support that were weak / non-existent. Though I feel it was rightly opposed based on the Recentism argument. Come the 2nd RM Discussion recentism went out the window, the women's and fustal versions have been called "Finalissima" completely derailing the "only for 2022" argument. The vast majority of reliable, independent sources are referring to 2025 as "Finalissima" aswell, and the article naming policy states there should be a level of consistency in article titles in which this is currently the odd one out. Mn1548 (talk) 10:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support Clear WP:COMMONNAME as demonstrated in sources presented above. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support I think they know…--78.209.189.252 (talk) 22:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per 78.209.189.252 Bruno pnm ars (talk) 21:53, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.