Talk:Financial transaction tax

Should we split this article into two articles: National, and International?

Should we split this article into two articles: National, and International?

The two headings could be these:

• Financial transaction tax (national concepts)

• Financial transaction tax (international concepts)

I am of two minds about this question:

On the one hand, I would say "Yes, we should split this article into two."....because it is a better way to carry out analysis. Analysis is the process of breaking things down into smaller pieces in order to think more clearly about them.

But on the other hand, if we break this into two articles, then how would we compare the two? How would we then compare the successes and failures of each? Consider the people who are working on both of these projects in the world. Could they benefit from knowing about each other's successes and failures? I would say yes, in some ways (but not in all ways).

This (above) explains the dilemma on the question of whether or not we should split this article into two articles.

One possible solution to this dilemma would be to create a third article entitled, "The comparison between national and international financial transaction taxes."

Or perhaps we could have that "comparison" as a section heading in both of these two articles:

• Financial transaction tax (national concepts)

• Financial transaction tax (international concepts)

I look forward to hearing thoughts from other editors. Boyd Reimer (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

If it was me, Id keep it as one page at least until it grows beyond about 60K. Most of the information will be redundant for both types of tax. You might find it hard to find sources that describe international transaction taxes in the general case, I dont think Ive even encountered a formal explanation of the national / international distinction – perhaps writers on the subject dont feel a need as there are no implemented examples? Reading between the lines after hearing a few presentations on Tobin, id guess an international transaction tax has to meet at least one of two criteria. 1) The revenue accrues to an international body, such as the UN. 2) Its uniformly applied by several nations so financial markets dont just shift operations to another tax jurisdiction.

I dont think the buyer and seller being of different nationalities counts, as this is common in capital control taxes like the ones Brazil has just implemented, but that would be a national tax as Brazil gets the revenue and the tax is unique to Brazil (the purpose being not so much to raise revenue as to slow capital inflow that was causing currency appreciation)

If I come across a good source to define the difference I'll add it to the article. Just some ideas, I think you should organise it however you like. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - Boyd Reimer (talk) 14:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Robin Hood Tax vs Tobin Tax

About the Robin Hood Tax, the article says: "It is similar to the Tobin tax" wich is not completely true. In fact, the Robin Hood Tax is inspired in the Tobin Tax, but it's more general. Tobin Tax only covers "spot conversions of one currency into another". Robin Hood Tax should cover every bank transaction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carloscapote (talk • contribs) 16:20, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Revenue

A section on "revenue" was recently added. It needs clarification and better sourcing.

Currently it's: Institute for Policy Studies states revenue of $177. billion dollars/year in the US. with the reference [1]

There's a few problems with that. A blog isn't generally a good source, and how it's stated is unclear. Both of these could possibly be solved by following it back to it's source. The blog links to the Institute for Policy Studies study, and that study actually sources its numbers to a Center for Economic and Policy Research paper here. There the number $176.9 billion was used, but with a fair amount of elaboration. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:06, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Content moved from Bank tax

Boyd Reimer (talk) 15:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

"Bubbles" in the Keynes' quote

I removed the linkage of the word "bubble" to Financial bubbles in the Keynes' quote. He was simply referring to bubbles on the surface of a water stream for comparing the volatility component vs. the growth component. --65.105.195.14 (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Non-government supporters and opponents

There is an entry under 2011 that reads:

• October 10, 2011 - Charity group Oxfam, which is campaigning for a financial transaction tax, sought court action to ban a pensioner from one of its shops, asking him to pay a £10,000 legal bill after he complained about a poster which highlighted Oxfam’s call for a “Robin Hood” tax of banks and financial institutions. Pensioner Barry Nowlan, 63, of Taunton, says he has a legitimate complaint about Oxfam’s “political campaigning.”

It seems like this should be either changed or removed as it is not relevant to the purpose of this section. This entry describes a quarrel between a person and a charity organization's use of advertising and not the support or opposition of the idea itself. I have flagged this section as cleanup for now. Adrian (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

How about a map?

How about a map that indicates which countries support/oppose a FTT? Maybe that would also need a third category, indicating countries that only support a FTT if it is introduced on a regional/global level. --spitzl (talk) 12:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorting out the article's structure

I have tried to give the article a bit more structure. Nevertheless it is still a big mess. The problem imho is that the lemma "financial transaction tax" is to broad to cover all aspects of it (that is each individual's perception of what a FTT is or should be) in one article. To solve the problem I suggest this article sticks mainly to the theoretical concept of FTT and outsource specific (proposals of) implementations to separate articles (see e.g. EU financial transaction tax). Otherwise we will never get anywhere.--spitzl (talk) 17:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sounds a good plan, looks like you've already improved the article considerably. You might find you have the article mostly to yourself, econ and finance articles arent useually very popular. With tax articles you do sometimes get editors with very strong opinions having a go, which can be pesky... FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi FeydHuxtable and thanx for the feedback. I'll see what I can do.--spitzl (talk) 15:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I have now given the article a major overhaul. What I would still suggest is to either a) list supporting and opposing countries alphabetically, or b) remove the section altogether and replace it with a map. I have no clue though, how to create maps in Wikipedia. Maybe someone else could jump into this.--spitzl (talk) 19:26, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Nice one, looks much better. I hope good BoydReimer , the editor who created the page gets to see these improvements! Making a simple map for Wikipedia is easy, Ive made about a dozen for international relations articles and they only take about 3 minutes each. E.g. see the one at Iceland–Mexico relations. The map template is a public domain image, and with a decent free image editor like MS paint or whatever you can easily use the Colour picker / PaintBucket tools to highlight the particular countries of interest.

But or the purposes you're suggesting above, we'd need a fairly complex map to do a good clear job of presenting the information. It would take me at least 7 hours to make (someone who specialises in graphics might be much quicker). I agree that a map would be a really nice way to show global support, but there is a risk other editors would object. It would in a sense be original research, unless we can find a single top tier source showing the positions of the various major players. Sure we can find articles in reliable newspapers, but often even a statement by a Finance Minister cant always be relied on to capture a countries official position - which on this issue seems to vary over time in many cases. Also, it may sound strange, but on politically charged issues like these, when you improve the clarity of presentation you can suddenly get interest from strong POVs from both ends of the spectrum. The point Im getting to is making a map would be a lot of work with a risk that it would get deleted due to objections. I support the idea in principle but would not be up for taking on the work on myself. Anyway thanks again for your excellent improvements! FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I guess we leave it like it is then. I don't think we would manage to find common grounds for comparison, given that many countries support/oppose different versions of FTT. Btw, I did put the section about non-governmental support/opposition back into the article, though in a much more compact way. Thanx for the praise. That's it for now from my side. Let's see what other contributions are coming in. Cheers, --spitzl (talk) 10:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Archived section: non-government supporters/opposers

I have removed the following section from the article but I leave it here for further consideration.--spitzl (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I have put this section back into the article in a much more compact form, only listing important figures. Hope I didn't miss anyone.--spitzl (talk) 10:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Non-government supporters and opponents

1936 to 1990

• 1936 - Among the first proponents of a financial transaction tax was John Maynard Keynes, who first proposed his version in 1936.
• 1972 - Author of "Tobin tax" James Tobin
• 1989 - Supporter: Lawrence Summers

1990 to 1999

• June 16, 1995, Paul Bernd Spahn opposed the original form of the Tobin tax and proposed his own variation (see Spahn tax).
• On August 1, 1995, an IMF Working Paper No. 95/77 Financial Transactions Taxes by Shome,Parthasrathi and Stotsky, Janet Gale found that "the economic effects of financial transactions taxes on capital markets are seen to be pervasive. They may impose significant efficiency costs by impairing the smooth functioning of financial markets, increasing the cost of capital, and distorting the structure of capital financing. Their effects on the volatility of capital flows, either in domestic or international financial markets, are uncertain, as are their distributional and revenue effects."
• 1997 - Supporter - Ignacio Ramonet
• 1998 - Supporter - Economics writer Linda McQuaig
• 1998 - Supporters - ATTAC (Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions for the Aid of Citizens)

2000 to 2004

• In 2001 the charity War on Want released The Robin Hood Tax, a report explaining the case for a currency transactions tax. War on Want also sets up the Tobin Tax Network to develop the proposal and press for its introduction.
• 2001 - September 19 - Speculator George Soros, put forward a different proposal, Special Drawing Rights or SDRs that the rich countries would pledge for the purpose of providing international assistance, without necessarily dismissing the Tobin tax idea. He stated, "It is not at all clear to me that a Tobin tax would reduce volatility in the currency markets. It is true that it may discourage currency speculation but it would also reduce the liquidity of the marketplace."
• In 2001, the International Monetary Fund conducted considerable research that opposes a transaction tax. In 2001 findings by Habermeier, Karl Friedrich and Kirilenko, Andrei state that "transaction taxes or such equivalents as capital controls can have negative effects on price discovery, volatility, and liquidity and lead to a reduction in the informational efficiency of markets." (See also IMF position of 2010, below)

2005 to 2008

• In 2006, Markku Lanne and Timo Vesala of University of Helsinki write in the Bank of Finland Research Discussion Paper No. 11/2006 The Effect of a Transaction Tax on Exchange Rate Volatility(2006) that "a transaction tax is likely to amplify, not dampen, volatility in foreign exchange markets."
• In September 2006, George Monbiot argues in favour of a Tobin Tax, in his book Heat: How to Stop the Planet Burning.

2009

• In August, 2009, Adair Turner, chair of the United Kingdom Financial Services Authority, in an interview for Prospect magazine supported the idea of new global taxes on financial transactions, warning that a “swollen” financial sector paying excessive salaries has grown too big for society.
• October 5, 2009 - Supporter - Joseph Stiglitz (recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 2001 and the John Bates Clark Medal in 1979, and former Senior Vice President and Chief Economist of the World Bank.)
• In early November 2009, the "Lex" column of Financial Times opposes the Tobin tax, in "Tobin or not Tobin" it writes "The Tobin tax should remain a curiosity of economic history."
• In November 2009, Matthew Sinclair, Research Director of the TaxPayers' Alliance, wrote an article in the London newspaper City AM A Tobin Tax would destroy London without making the world safer
• In late November 2009 Paul Krugman, New York Times columnist and professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University, argued that a Tobin Tax would have ameliorated the Financial crisis of 2007–2010. He wrote, "bad investments aren’t the whole story of the crisis. What turned those bad investments into catastrophe was the financial system’s excessive reliance on short-term money ... a financial transactions tax, by discouraging reliance on ultra-short-run financing, would have made such a run much less likely. So contrary to what the skeptics say, such a tax would have helped prevent the current crisis — and could help us avoid a future replay." Krugman wrote that it is "an idea whose time has come."
• In late November 2009, Economist Charles Goodhart, Professor Emeritus of Banking and Finance at London School of Economics and developer of Goodhart's law, was scathing in his criticism of "radical and consumer groups [that] go on backing the Tobin tax idea". He argued, "Many of those who support such a tax neither know, nor care, what effects it might have on market efficiency. Besides a, generally misguided view that its imposition would fall primarily on the financial sector, rather than be passed on to its customers, the hope is that such a tax would produce lots of lovely revenue, to be spent on good deeds, such as foreign aid."
• December 7, 2009, economist Stephany Griffith-Jones advocated a very low but "internationally co-ordinated tax on financial transactions, often described as a Tobin tax."
• December 7, 2009 - Supporter - Hector Sants, Chief Executive Officer of the United Kingdom Financial Services Authority

2010

• February 15, 2010 - The Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Business Advisory Council, wrote to the IMF opposing a global transaction tax. The Council wrote:

(The) imposition of a global tax is an inappropriate response and a further burden to industries, especially small and medium enterprises, and consumers in the wake of the global financial crisis. We also believe that the proposals under consideration would be harmful for a range of additional reasons, including the practical challenges of implementing any such tax.

• 31 March 2010 - "350 economists, including Jeffrey Sachs and the Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, from more than 35 countries signed a letter to the leaders of the Group of 20 countries calling on them to impose a tax on financial transactions between financial institutions, but not on transactions conducted by individuals." The then leaders of Europe's three biggest economies - Angela Merkel of Germany, Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Gordon Brown of Britain -were "promoting a financial transaction tax as a way of raising as much as $US 400billion a year to fulfil commitments to domestic budgets, poverty reduction, global health and climate change mitigation." A coalition of community organizations in Australia also supported the tax.
• April 16, 2010 - International Monetary Fund - "While the IMF does not endorse a Financial Transaction Tax (FTT), it concedes that 'The FTT should not be dismissed on grounds of administrative practicality.' The IMF does not endorse the FTT on the grounds that it 'does not appear well suited to the specific purposes set out in the [2009/2010] mandate from the G-20 leaders.'" (See also IMF position of 2001, above)
• December 14, 2010 - A Tulane Law Review article that evaluated four proposed financial-industry tax reforms (including the DeFazio Financial Transactions Tax and the Pelosi "G20 global tax") concluded that imposing a financial-transactions tax would be "foolish". Meanwhile, the article lent lukewarm support to other tax initiatives, such as the Financial Crisis Responsibility Fee.

References

Forgotten--The Taxation of Land Values

This tax reduces speculation in land values and makes more sites available that were held out of use for purposes of speculation in values. In effect it collects the opportunity that rent of land normally provides to the land owner. Please refer to Henry George as the original writer about this matter.Macrocompassion (talk) 16:58, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

US Financial transaction tax currently below 1.6 billion for FY 2014 based on SEC budget request

The SEC is requesting $1.64 billion for their 2014 budget. This suggests that the $1.8b in the article from some time ago was anomalous. Reference should be removed. — robbie ^{page talk} 19:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

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Public Opinion

The first line under "Public Opinion" is: The vast majority of people oppose a FTT.

This seems unsupported by any data. There is a link to an opinion piece on the next sentence, but that article talks only about the author's expectations of the financial impact of the FTT; there is no discussion in the article about public opinion. I'd recommend deleting this section. The section under "Europe" at least seems to have some basis in documentation.Dcoleman123 (talk) 19:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

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