Talk:Finiq

Edwin Jacques is not a serious source

Stuff like Jaques isn't 'rs' for sure. How can someone believe that ancient Albanians fought in the Trojan War like he mentions? Moreover, there is a major historical discrepancy since Finiq was under Byzantine rule until 1348, how can a (possible) Albanian clan originate from there? Off course some 'rs' can give a solution to this.Alexikoua (talk) 21:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Now why should the greeks fight in the Trojan war and the ancient Albanians couldn't?

How can the Albanian clan originate from Finiq: simply because Finiq was and is still in Albania. Don't confuse Byzantine with Greek, Byzantine means Roman Empire of the Orient and was place to Albanians, Romans, Greeks and everybody else. Cheers! sulmues (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC).

Are you serious? What an incredibly inane, childish comment. Ancient Albanians? What a joke. As for Edwin Jacques, here's what Robert Elsie has to say about his "book" [1]. Not for the serious person. --Athenean (talk) 00:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Now, since I am in civilty supervision, I cannot reply to you with the same pathos, so I'm going to not respond at all to your incivilty that includes "inane", "childish", and "not serious" in two sentences. You would have reported even my cousins for much less to your friends without even thinking twice. However if you truly read till the end what Robert Elsie say about the book he closes it starts with the following sentence its last paragraph:

"Is The Albanians to be recommended as worthy reading? Very definitely. It offers the reader a pleasant and elucidating stroll through Albanian history as well as an impressive amount of detail and information, in particular about the communist period."

So bottom line, Elsie is recommending the book! Now of course Bartl is a friend of Elsie so he should sell too, but keep in mind that Elsie is saying that he is recommending the book.sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 19:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

You conveniently ignore everything else that Elsie says about the "book". Edwin Jacques is a clown, and his book is trash. Period. There is absolutely no way we are going to use him as a source, either here or anywhere else on this encyclopedia. This "discussion" is over. --Athenean (talk) 19:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm not convinced yet. But for the sake of [2] I'm going to leave it here for now. And I'm not going to ask for Mediation, because you are a much more experienced editor, and it would be the equivalent of testifying against a cop in the USSR.sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 19:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I expect user:Athenean to apologize for his comments on Reverend Jacques: [3]Edwin Jacques is a clown, and his book is trash. Period.--_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 23:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

i think atheneans point was that jacques is in fact...a reverend - 'Now why should the greeks fight in the Trojan war and the ancient Albanians couldn't?' oh sulmues!85.73.217.158 (talk) 23:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Greek speakers?

Entered dubious|verify mostly for the book of Winnifrith, because the first reference is inappropriate already: speaks about ancient Greece. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 23:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Winnifrith is now verified, I added the link in googlebooks about the specific quote. If this isn't enough I noticed that one of Enver Hotza (the former dictator) declarations [[4]] talks about the Greek population of Vurgut, in which Finiq is part. Case is now fixed I believe. Actually Finiq was of the 99 'minoritare' with recognized Greek majorities by the regime of Social-stalinist Albania (1945-1991).Alexikoua (talk) 07:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

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Folk etymology and other fringe material

I have removed this as [5] WP:FRINGE. There is no historical record of any Levantine settlement in the area, nor is there any archeological evidence of it. These are folk etymologies, the author does not seem to have any academic credentials, and his book is self-published (lulu.com). Furthermore, there is no such place as "Jerikon" anywhere in Albania. Khirurg (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Hmm is it really published by lulu.com? That is not what is said in the book itself [[6]] [[7]] (indeed the Israeli Embassy was involved in its production)... Someone was either clumsy or misrepresenting things I think :). Where on earth did you come up with Lulu.com? Of course Jewish sources also cite Kotani about the 5th century settlement of Jews in the area of Sarande, where Albania's first synagogue was built [[8]]. Also, does not have academic credentials? Kotani is a respected Albanian historian and you are coming dangerously close to violating WP:BLPTALK. Or do you think a book funded by the Israeli embassy is unreliable?--Calthinus (talk) 22:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Of course in all fairness if htis is to be mentioned this alternative viewpoint disputing any Phoenician connections can also be added [[9]]--Calthinus (talk) 22:41, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Be careful with the accusations of misrepresenting :) The book is self-published and does not meet WP:RS. That is is published by Lulu.com can be seen here [10]. So who is misrepresenting again? You should do your homework on sources before adding such material on wikipedia. There are no records of any ancient Levantine settlements in the area, nor is there any archeological evidence. The etymologies are junk, and as a a linguist, I thought you would know that. Also, can you please show us where on the map is this "Jerikon"? Thanks in advance. Khirurg (talk) 22:52, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Khirurg Publication info, from the front of the book[[11]]: The third edition is a completion of hte first two editions... published in 1995 and 1996.... This publication was made with the support of the Albanian American Civic League and Albanian American Foundation, Embassy of Israel, and the Albania-Israel Friendship Association, Tirana.... So now that that's cleared up, the more interesting stuff...

Nah being a linguist doesn't get you money -- just something I have taken classes in/studied. Not my career. As they say, you don't know me :). You'll never find out who I am, I've made sure of that.

Tbh yeah they are phonologically a bit surprising-- if it is assumed the language in question was only Albanian (dubious, since we have of course Greek and Vulgar Latin, and very possibly Slavic placenames like Konispol nearby, etc). Once you have borrowing back and forth between languages, "corruption" can happen (tbf Palaestina, if you drop the n, in some cases a palatalized t could merge with palatalized former IE kw- whose destination was /s/ in modern Alb-- hence Palasa, allegedly).

Jerikon actually tis hard to find for itself, one "folksy" site seems to suggest it is dialectally Orikum. Well Orikum is also connected to Jericho by other sources it seems, see this baby here [[12]]. Is this deterministic? No-- it attests the proposal, it's not proven by any means and we don't present it as such.

Do we have other sources mentioning this? Oh, yes. We have Ferit Duka, Profesor Doktor-Përgjegjës i Departamentit të Studimeve Mesjetare dhe Osmane në Qendren e Studimeve Albanologjike [[13]], who says ["The few, but significant, remaining traces of the early development of this process can be considered toponyms or microtopics that still exist to this day in different parts of the Albanian territory. Thus, for example, scholars of Jewish history are inclined to include some names of settlements in Southern Albania such as Palasa, Orikumi and Finiqi, respectively linking the names of old Jewish settlements such as Palestine, Jericho and Phoenicians, which is considered a sign of Jewish presence in Albanian territories since ancient times." (used google translate-- it's the third paragraph from the top)].

Looking forward to the retraction of your comments about me promoting fringe material, and also preferably the BLPTALK on Kotani, whose career you insulted. Now to be fair, I'm down to remove the stuff about Palasa and Orikum as this page is not about them.--Calthinus (talk) 23:11, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Guys, keep it cool. Only sources should be the focus of discussion. Seperate to that interesting stuff though. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:19, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

I have a right to defend myself against insults Resnjari-- you of all people should understand that. And also, Apostol Kotani. Of course we now have many more sources.--Calthinus (talk) 23:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

I know, i didn't just include you, its all. For the moment i'm just observing.Resnjari (talk) 23:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

(unindent) Regarding Kotani's book, the fact that it was funded by the Albanian-Israel Friendship Association means nothing as far as reliablity. It is a self-published book, published by lulu.com, a well-known self-publication outfit. This can clearly be seen here [14] (wikipedia does not let me post the link from the lulu.com website on this talkpage - it is blacklisted. This gives us an idea of what the wikipedia community thinks of lulu.com). So yes, that does clear that up. As far afalc.org is not a reliable source either. Look, if there was any merit to these claims, they would have been published in peer-reviewed archeology journals or by reliable publishers. Instead we are scraping the bottom of the internet barrel here. Forget it. Khirurg (talk) 23:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Here is an excerpt from the opening of Kotani's book:

Apollodar the great writer of the second century BC, and the geographer of antiquity Scymm show that Vidam, son of the Phoneician king, became king of the Illyrian tribe of the Enchelei. In some scientific studies that address old sources, Illyrian-Jewish relations are traced since the end of the second millennium before CE. By the end of the XII century BC many Illyrians were displaced from the Illyrian peninsula and settled in the Middle East. Amongst these tribes it is mentioned that of Peles who settled on the southern coast of Syria, by which it is thought that the country got its name – Palestine. Other authors, for example Majani Zaharia say that “it is said that the Philistines were actually Illyrians. In the West the name of this nation is iseen under different names, but always relying on its Illyrian origin….In an old Israeli map, many Illyrian names are found. Also in the Old Testament there are Philistine names. Even the ancient Jews have left their mark in Illyria. The names Finiq and Jericho are not random. Scholars think that these names correspond to names historically associated with Israel, for example Finiq from ancient Fonike; Jerikoja with Jericho in the Bible, Palasa with Palestine. Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian of the first century AD, based on a letter of the year 135 written by a king of Lacedemonia, sent to Therrotar the Great of Israel…

I mean, you can't make this stuff up. Apollodar? Scymm? Palestine as an Illyrian etyomology? What does Lacedomonia have to do with anything? And who it Therrotar? No, really, you can't make this stuff up. Khirurg (talk) 23:37, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg:, Kotani aside, Duka, a historian on the ancient and medieval periods is usable and the sentence would be based on his academic article in Studime Historike, a peer reviewed journal. Calthinus just cited you a snippet which was free use on the afalc.org site. The full article is found at [15] and the info is on page 10.Resnjari (talk) 23:48, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Khirurg the English version is the one you linked. That's the translation, not the actual publication. The connection of the name Philistine to Palestine and that Philistines came from a possibly IE-speaking area are widely held views. Ok I mean the Illyrian-Philistine thing is a bit imaginative. Generally the idea is they came from Greece or Anatolia not that far north. But there are many imaginative ideas floated by serious authors about the Philistines, since everyone goes bonkers about the fact they might have been Indo-European or "Aryan" (sigh, some people are just obsessed with the blonde Jesus thing and they can get very irrational about it... you know). I've came across these theories a number of times and thought it would be interesting to post them and the first source that came up was Kotani. We also have Duka. See the citation. It's from the Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, and the other is a Profesor Doktor. I was planning to add the other viewpoint about the Finiq that I posted above as well too, before you blew up both this page and my talk page with accusations about myself and also Kotani. As for now, I'll be back, gotta run.--Calthinus (talk) 23:49, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. Any Levantine (Phoenician or Hebrew) presence in what is now Albania in deep antiquity would be highly significant and shake up everything we know about the history of the ancient Mediterranean. At a minimum I would expect an article in a peer-reviewed, international English language journal. Speculative and folksy etymologies should not be included no matter who the author is. Khirurg (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Also regarding Duka, he is being very vague: "Scholar of Jewish history connect the names..." But which scholars? Sorry, but the source is not commensurate to the claim being made. Phoenice was an inland settlement, the capital of the Chaonians. A Levantine connection is highly unlikely especially so far back in antiquity. There's a gazillion speculative folk etymologies out there. I have seen literally dozens in my years editing wikipedia. None of them are encyclopedic material. Khirurg (talk) 00:00, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

On Duka, he refers to those places in terms of a possible presence, via toponymic connections. Most of his article is about the Jewish presence from the 16th to 18th centuries. His footnotes are based on the Ottoman + Venetian archives and the bit about toponyms is reference to an older Jewish presence in Albania for earlier context. As there were 3 places mentioned, might as well deal with most of them here. With Levant connections and toponyms, scholars have hypothesized on Palasa and Philistines (via Palastae: i.e Malamat. p.83. [16], Drews p.69 does an overview of scholars on Palastae [17], a 2016 Harvard University (via Harvard College) translation of Caesar's Civil War associates Palastae and Palasa. [18]) -and in the wiki article about Philistines Bonfante is cited as he talks about Philistines, Palastae and Palasa [19] pp. 251–262. Ancient Oricum also carried the name "Ericho" [20] (Hammond goes on about Ericho and Oricum on that page -if you don't have the book i can place the whole quote if interested). Local Albanians refer to the site as Eriha (this was before the communist era) and now Orikum. Oricum has also been called "Jericho" and "Arico" in medieval times and its name has been associated with the biblical Jericho in past times (as per the Italian historical journal Studi Storici dealing with medieval matters, p.127. [21]). I can include the written quote if anyone requires a translation. Just saying that serious academics and publications have cited things of the sort and its not just Duka who is a reputable historian (i.e Winnifrith [22]). Definitely not a one off. Quite complex. How to proceed, if at all, more discussion is needed.Resnjari (talk) 03:24, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Regarding Palasa, just about every name in the Med that contain the "P-L-S" sequence has been "connected" to the Philistines/Palestine (e.g. the Pelasgians), but these are nothing more than musings and speculations. Regarding the sources you present there are two that link the Philistines with "Palaeste" (and not "Palasa"), and then one that links "Palaeste" with "Palasa". But this is the very definition of WP:SYNTH. Furthermore, it is highly doubtful that such a small village high up in the hills is of such deep antiquity. There is no evidence to suggest that the village is that old. We know where there existed ancient settlements in what is now Albania, and Palasa is not among them. As for Oricum, lots of places were given biblical-sounding names in medieval times. Doesn't mean anything. These are just folk etymologies and speculations, like "Bardylis" = "White Star" and so forth. That's why they are only found in obscure sources. Khirurg (talk) 03:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

The sources are not obscure. They meet wp:reliable. My point was that reputable scholars have discussed these kinds of things in scholarship. To what extent they are needed or not for this article etc is another matter and i am on the fence with at this point in time. I would be interested to see what @Calthinus: says.Resnjari (talk) 04:07, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

You have not addressed my point that no reliable source makes the connection between the modern village of Palasa and "Palestine", which is WP:SYNTH and about as fanciful as folk etymologies get. So much for that at least. Regarding Oricum and "Jericho", Hammond makes no connection to the Jericho in Palestine, only "Ericho" (which could have any number of meanings), and the Studi Storici source is obscure (and old) it is not an international English-language peer-reviewed journal. Khirurg (talk) 04:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I mean, afaik the presence of Romaniote Jews in the neighborhood dates way back, at least to the destruction of the Second Temple, and given the relevance Via Egnatia and the dispersion around the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt, really it doesn't seem that earthshattering to me to have Jews in a place that is adjacent to another place of known Jewish settlement, after their known dispersion and well integrated in the economic structure of the empire (Phoenicians I know less about but given their mercantile and diasporal tendencies and the demonstrated and citable multiethnic nature of Roman urban centers for example Londinium, it's... also not earthshattering really...) . The issue is that Albania is an understudied area, and when scholars do the hard work of digging up stuff too often they are exclusively Albanian becuase no one else seems to care ( :( ) and they will never be read and no non-Albanian knows the works exist. Of course there are coastal villages in Albania that claim Jewish origins, and of course notes that Vlore was 1/3 Jewish -- albeit Sefardic not Romaniote-- prior to Islamization, Saranda having the first synagogue in the late Roman era-- et cetera. How wikipedia should discuss this is another matter. Will need some thought. Coverage is important so is policy. Perhaps the best way to handle this is a move of material to History of Jews in Albania rather than on stub pages about villages where these views may appear to take up more than their due weight as per percent of the article-- some things to think about. Palasa-Palaestina isn't synth as two sources covered it. Oh yeah also the Illyrian-Philistine thing Kotani mentioned looked really weird to me at first but it does seem to be currently covered on wiki so who knows how it compares to the other theories really (though the date is 1946). --Calthinus (talk) 06:18, 2 May 2018 (UTC) By the way, Shoqata e Miqesise i.e. the Albanian/Israeli funded org is the publisher of Kotani's work [[23]]. Not this "lulu" that published one English translation of one of the three editions.

(unindent) The Romaniote stuff is nice but it's really off-topic and just plain speculation. Oricum was founded long before the Second Temple went down. Regarding the Phoenicians, there are no known Phoenician colonies in the Ionian/Adriatic, the nearest Phoenician settlements being in western Sicily. Furthermore Phoenice is and was an inland settlement, so highly unlikely. Regarding Palasa, none of the sources connect it directly to "Palestine", I only see connection between Palaeste and Palasa and Palaeste and Palestine, but no direct connection between "Palasa" and "Palestine", therefore WP:SYNTH applies. There is also zero evidence to suggest that the small village of Palasa has origins deep in antiquity. As for Shoqata e Miqesise (Friendship Society) is does not appear to meet the WP:RS criterion that it is a publisher with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. The fact that is is Israeli funded means absolutely nothing as far as reliability is concerned. There is nothing here. Only fanciful speculation and folk etymologies sourced to obscure sources, one of which fails WP:RS. The only thing we learned is that if we scrape the internet of obscure sources really, really deeply (and I mean really deeply) we can come up with some obscure author that mused about a folk etymology for almost anything. What's next, "Sparta" from "Subartu"? "Argos" from "Uruk".? Khirurg (talk) 06:54, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

ok, i'm just going to place the quotes:

• HAMMOND.p.127. "I had to follow the coast from the east to reach the ancient site 'Ericho' on the shore of the lagoon which is called Pasha Liman. I approached it through a boggy outflow of the swamp. Ericho itself is a low rocky outcrop, which in the apt phrase of Pliny 'has ceased to be an island', and at its western end the outlet channel from the lagoon is quite narrow. The rock has been cut in many places to form steps and level passages, but there is a scarcity of shaped blocked of stone, which have no doubt been removed for building material, The foundations of towers are visible in the outer circuit. There are remains of an inner circuit -wall made with smaller stones and post-classical in date. Even in antiquity, when the surface of the sea was some 5ft. lower, the circuit-wall of Oricum must have been considerably shorter in length then that of Buthotrum.

• STUDI STORICI. p.262: "Il « Calidnus » è il fiume Dukati o Ljumi bardhi, che sbocca nel golfo di Vlore (Pasaliman), già ricordato a proposito dell'antica città di « Oricum », la quale pare sia esistita anche in periodo medioevale, ma sotto il nome biblico di « Jericho » o di « Arico » (Thallóczy, lll.-alb. Forsch., I, 184-185)." Translation: "The "Calidnus" is the river Dukati or Ljumi bardhi, which flows into the Gulf of Vlore (Pasaliman), already mentioned in connection with the ancient city of "Oricum", which seems to have existed also in the Middle Ages, but under the biblical name of «Jericho» or «Arico» (Thallóczy, lll.-alb Forsch., I, 184-185)."

• COHN in Die Geschichte der sizilischen Flotte 1060-1266. -a acedmic book about the medieval era or the area. p. 52: "Nach kurzer Uberfahrt gelangte also diese Flotte in die Bucht von Valona und nahm die Stadt Oricum oder Jericho ein '), worauf ein Teil der Schiffe an der Mündung des Flusses Vjotsa am Ausgang der Bai Anker warf." Translation: "After a short crossing, this fleet entered the Bay of Valona and captured the city of Oricum or Jericho, * whereupon part of the ships threw themselves at the mouth of the Vjotsa River at the exit of the Bai Anchor."

@Khirurg:, here are the full quotes to the above snippets where access is unavailable. I added the examples to show the varying digress these placenames have been discussed in the context of connections to the Levantine coast and vica versa whether in an ancient or medieval context. Also that Duka is not alone but toward the end spectrum (2002) in that long line, as he is the main proposed candidate here for article addition. Scholars have these philological discussions over toponyms, that also involve disagreements etc in credible publications. So in the end should these academic discussions relating to that specific toponym be included in this Wikipedia article (and possibly for another two). That's why i said further discussion in previous posts to sort out things as sources do meet wp:reliable. I'm still on the fence with this one, as its not as detailed as i would prefer.Resnjari (talk) 07:03, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

(unindent) Thanks for providing the quotes and translations. Now, I don't see anything about Palasa and Phoenice, so I assume those are moot. Regarding Oricum, it appears is may have been called "Ericho/Jericho" in the medieval period, but I don't see anything about antiquity. Biblical names in the middle ages were a fad, nothing unusual, but I don't think it's encyclopedia-worthy. FYI Oricum was founded by Euboean settlers as Ωρικός, it is highly unlikely they would have named their settlement about some far away village deep in the Judaen desert, whose existence they would probably not even be aware of. Khirurg (talk) 07:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg: i know what mean and in the same token the sources also meet wp:reliable. With Phoenice yeah, its still in the realm of scholarly hypothesis and something that has not had deep discussion with little detail given. So including it here for me is a no. With Palestae, Bonfante is the one that ties it all up (its many pages, i cant post them as i am individual not a human library) but its from the 1940s (to old with this matter as other have talked about it after). Others might be ok with it, but i ain't pushing for inclusion and its for them to deal with. The other sources on Palastae was to show that scholars are still discussing it here or there and Duka is not alone. With Oricum, the settlement went through change, toponyms changed too and so did meaning and associations (Pagan-Christian). Still more detail is needed. In the end many of these academics have written some great work in other areas and published in places that meet Wikipedia criteria of reliability and would suffice there. But here more detailed content is preferable in this instance. You said you come across sources about Finiq as a toponym. Add some, it would greatly enhance the article as you got me interested. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:45, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg and Resnjari:} For the presence of Jews nearby, for Sarande~Onchesmos~Anchilasmon sources are easier to find -- examples[[24]][[25]]. My original edit was definitely a mistake and kind of embarrassing-- I should have given it much more thought but sometimes I don't really think I just edit when I'm bored from work (mea culpa). As I have said elsewhere recently, it is a fact that I suck though I'm not sure I count as RS on this matter :). As I said I can see why this really doesn't belong on a small page like Finiq-- it takes up way too much space and is not due. I propose instead to put something like "various toponyms near the coast of Laberi have been tentatively connected by some authors to Levantine including Jewish settlement<cites> but alternative hypotheses are also held<cites> <sentence about Onchesmos> ", and end it there, on the page History of Jews in Albania. --Calthinus (talk) 07:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

@Calthinus:Its all good. In the end the ancient Jewish presence is little studied in Albania. Academics seeking to give context about that period may refer to more active scholarly discussions that are still not as settled or detailed enough for a inclusion in the article, even though they do meet Wikipedia criteria in terms of reliability etc. The sources you have presented now are good for inclusion in the Jews in Albania and the Saranda page (as Onchesmos redirects there).Resnjari (talk) 08:22, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

It's obvious that the use of third-grade self published material should be avoided. However, the reference offered by Calthinus above about Jewish presence is fine (as far I know Jericho was the Byzantine era name of Oricum and this can be confirmed by RS).Alexikoua (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua could you pass me a source about Jericho being hte Byzantine era name of Oricum? That would be great to add.

Regarding the Judaic material, although Resnjari does not want it here and frankly I've come to agree, he seems okay with it on Jews in Albania -- do you think this works Khirurg?

Also in the future -- such as for some things about Himara -- I think it will be best when I come with new material I'll ping some combination of you three so that we can discuss it on the talk page first so we can discuss sources and develop a balanced view incorporating any necessary Greek, Albanian or other scholarship , before it is added to the mainspace. I think that will avoid some of the unpleasantness-- do you mind if I ping you all in such a situation (I'll understand if you're too busy to respond)?

Regarding the sourcing here, just to clear things up (for other page use) 1+ Polish source says as much as well for the three towns (this one [[26]] from 2015), while Kotani is a "Doctor" historian as well. Frankly I dont like his Illyrian-Philistine ramblings but I have some personal bias; other researchers have said as much too and it is reported on wiki. --Calthinus (talk) 16:51, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

The fact that Oricum/Oricos was also known as Jericho doesn't mean that there was some kind of Levantine settlement there. Hammond reads[p. 56]:

...Alexius, withdrew to concentrate his forces at Ochrid. It was in these circumstances that a region 'Albania' was first mentioned in literature, namely in the Norman French of the great epic, the Chanson de Roland, composed c. 1082-84. The place-names of Epirus Nova were reproduced in a French form or in a Biblical form: the river Charzanes (modern Arzen) appeared as Cheriant (line 3208); the river Mati (the modern name) as Val ('river' in the Chanson) Marchis, Mari or Morois; the ancient Oricus as Jericho.

I'm in general very reluctant about reproducing fridge theories such as Philistine/Illyrian or Trojan/Illyrian alliances.Alexikoua (talk) 18:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Trojan/Illyrian is crap and everyone agrees on that, also off-topic. Philistine/Illyrian was brought up by Khirurg as he felt it discredited Kotani; we also aren't talking about that. What we think about Orikum is irrelevant, Kotani-Duka-Czekalski say one thing and others say others, both sides can be cited in one sentence on another page, right? --Calthinus (talk) 18:16, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

As long as we have some concrete material to support this connection it's ok, but the weird Kotani theories about Illyrian colonization of Levant etc. live no doubt about wp:fringe. Also if there are any historians of Jewish history that claim such theories then we need to use them in our case (you already offered a fine piece of info for Onchesmos/Saranda).Alexikoua (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua Okay on "Illyrian colonization of the Levant" (did Illyrians even live in Illyria when the Philistines arrived?) I've made it pretty clear I think it's bull. Alright cool I think we've reached an agreement. --Calthinus (talk) 20:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

We have an agreement about not including anything here and in Palasa and Oricum. However, regarding History of Jews in Albania I am still not sold. Palaeste/Philistia and Phoenice/Phoenicians are, while Levantine, not Judaic. Oricum/Jericho is just part of the medieval Biblical fad, not necessarily a Judaic connection either. Furthermore, I just don't think there is anything here. Just some superficial similarities. There are very many of these throughout the Med region, I personally don't think they are all that notable or encyclopedic. The synagogue in Onchesmos/Agioi Saranda is another matter, that one is on much more solid ground. Khirurg (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

@Onchesmos: will do. As for the rest, I don't care enough and regarding their speculative nature I do mostly agree with you.--Calthinus (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua's characterization of sources as being "third grade" are inappropriate, as they are published by publishing houses and academics that meet wp:reliable, most of the examples being from the West. As i said earlier, these philological discussions are ongoing in the acedmic community, as is their right as scholars but there is not enough detail that would satisfy inclusion here at this point in time.Resnjari (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

The nature of such material makes it inavitably "inappropriate" for use in an encyclopedia: Illyrian collonization of the Levant, Illyrian origin of the Philistines, Illyrian names in Old Testament etc.. It's a typical third grade self-puslished material that is far from considered wp:RS.Alexikoua (talk) 06:15, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

They don't all refer to that, (much of it is philological discussion) and some number of those books are published by some well known university publishing houses in the West. Caution is advised as to what is called "third grade" as you have used content by some of those publishing houses.06:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

We refer to the specific author who published this kind of "historical evidence". Caution is adviced so as to avoid the use of this kind of material here. In case you doubt about the RS status of specific work you can always begin a discussion in the correspodent talkpage.Alexikoua (talk) 07:47, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Mostly Greeks

@AlexBachmann: are you referring to Çlirim, which has a mixed population? If so, feel free to modify the sentence of the lede. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: I am also refering to the data of the ministry of foreign affairs of Albania, which amout the number of the Greeks in the commune of Finiq to ~6000 (out of 11.000).

Other sources say Finiq is clearly Greek.

Because of this disputment, I find it obsolete to refer Finiq as "solely" Greek. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

According to Leonidas Kallivretakis, a top notch academic source, the town of Finiq is exclusively inhabited by Greeks. You can see it on page 54. You are misrepresenting the data from the ministry of Foreign Affairs. It doesn't say anywhere 6,000 Greeks out of 11,000, only that there are ~5,500 Greeks in Finiq, nothing else. Khirurg (talk) 04:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@AlexBachmann: The Finiq municipality does not have 5000 Albanians/non-Greeks, that's for sure. Kallivretakis himself is outdated, many things might have changed since 1995. The only thing that can be said with certainty is that the Finiq municipality is over 90% Greek. Now whether the village of Finiq itself has or does not have non-Greeks is a waste of time to discuss, it is a trivial detail about a village or at most a small town. Ktrimi991 (talk) 06:16, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Ktrimi991, do you find that the data of the ministry of foreign affairs of Albania is incorrect?

Just in case you didn't notice, that website (coe.int) is the webiste of the Council of Europe.

I agree with you on Finiq being majority Greek, but I find it obsolete to define it as "solely" Greek, again.

Khirurg, where did Kallivretakis get that data from? You do not understand what I am saying. As you can correctly recall,

the document says there are ~5.500 Greeks in Finiq. The number 11.000 is taken from this article. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the Finiq municipality is not "solely" Greek - if the article says that, change it. On the Ministry stuff, provide here a full quote of it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:54, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

2011 Census

The census of 2011 is well documented and referenced. If someone doesnt like it it doesnt mean that it should not be written here. Thank You! RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Demographics

The data on births and deaths about each municipality are public https://www.instat.gov.al/al/temat/treguesit-demografik%C3%AB-dhe-social%C3%AB/lindjet-vdekjet-dhe-martesat/#tab2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by HokutoKen (talk • contribs) 18:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg If you have RS sources to support your claim, you are free to add that to. But you have no right to remove the data who are well sourced and meet WP:RS. Otherwise you're being disruptive and I have to report it. HokutoKen (talk) 18:36, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

We generally don't use raw excel spreadsheets as sources, because they fall under WP:PRIMARY and can be altered at any time. And it is well-known that members of the Greek minority generally prefer to give birth in neighboring Greece, for reasons that are so obvious they do not need to be spelled out. I also note your are very interested in this municipality and Dropull, but not so much other municipalities in Albania. Why is that? Khirurg (talk) 04:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

That's an official 2018-2022 report. Could be replaced with a newer one but not 'altered at any time'. And I didn't know this "well-known" fact. Like I said if you have a source to back the claim, you should definitely "spell it out" and put it below the data. Not that I have any obligation to explain to you or anyone where I prefer to make my edits as long as I follow the rules. But to quench your curiosity. I was going to place the data in several municipalities to boost a little my edits, and started with the last three who also had the most unbalanced ratio By the way, I also note that you are very interested in showing which tribe lived around the mountains of Albania, but I don't see that you have done the same thing with Greece. Why is that? HokutoKen (talk) 21:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)