Talk:Firebird (roller coaster)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Meetthefeebles (talk · contribs) 18:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll review. Give me a couple of hours to have a read through and make some comments...Meetthefeebles (talk) 18:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I'll make a start. My first comment would be that the article is rather short and certainly shorter than any other GAN I've seen. Other than the GA Criteria, I've had a bit of a root about to see if there is any guidance on what I should expect to find in an article like this to ensure that c.3 of the criteria are met and it seems that some other coaster GA's are just as short (Behemoth (roller coaster) and Leviathan (roller coaster), for example) and the only guidance I could find was this. It seems, then, length is not an issue per se...

• Image check: The logo has a suitable non-free use rationale and is probably okay and iron wolf image is a derivative but is fine.
• Disambiguation: The tool says everything is fine.
• Dead refs: Look okay (I'll check as I go through).
• Quickfail issues: Can't see any tags, references cited, no evidence of edit-warring, can't say a roller-coaster is an 'ongoing event'– all looks fine.

I'll leave comments as I go:

• There seems to be a problem with the co-ordinates, which appears to have duplicated?

The coaster got relocated so there are two different co-ordinates. I don't know why they are overlapping though.--Dom497 (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the 'display' parameter in the infobox for the first co-ordinates which seems to have fixed the problem. Meetthefeebles (talk) 20:53, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• Genuine question: is RCDB a reliable source? I thought it was just a very well-researched fansite/fan-database? There is a tag on the Roller Coaster DataBase wikipage which claims that it might not be notable enough even to have a wiki-page? I'm also curious as to why the first sentence has two references? (If RCDB is reliable then surely that reference is enough?)

Oh it reliable. Its used on the Behemoth and Leviathan articles and any other roller coaster articles that are Good Articles. I also removed one ref.--Dom497 (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that too and so I am presuming it is okay. I am still not convinced, though, that it is much different to something like IMDB, which isn't reliable.Meetthefeebles (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• Does the second sentence need a citation? It is a repetition of something contained in the main article which is cited. Per leadcite " Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material." I think it can be removed.

Fixed.--Dom497 (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• Slight typo: "Swiss manufacture...". Should this be 'manufacturer'?

Fixed.

Actually, it still says 'manufacture'...I'll change it...done Meetthefeebles (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• In fact, that sentence doesn't quite read right as is. Suggest slight rewrite: perhaps "The roller coaster was the first built by Swiss manufacturer Bolliger and Mabillard."

Fixed.

Can I suggest that we take out the second 'roller coaster' from the sentence. The first mention renders the second redundant.Meetthefeebles (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• Again, I'm not sure that the last sentence in the lead needs three citations as it appears to be a repetitive summary of more detailed info in the main article which is sourced there.

Fixed.

• I would also note that ref.5 states that the coaster reached top speeds of 55mph and had a 90ft drop, which contradicts the figures stated, and I can't see anything in refs 6 or 7 to support the figures stated.

Don't understand what your trying to say, everything matches in the article.--Dom497 (talk) 18:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

It does now that you've changed the lead from 60mph to 55mph.Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• Ref.5 describes Iron Wolf as the "world's tallest and fastest stand up looping coaster". Suggest adding 'looping' to the description in the lead? I am not an expert on coasters, but I'd imagine the fastest stand-up coaster might be different to the fastest, stand-up looping one?

Not going to bother trying to calsiffy looping with non-looping. I just added looping.--Dom497 (talk) 18:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Looks much better. Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• I can't find anything in the three references cited to show that Z-Force was the 'Intamin only space diver ever built'. In fact, the RCDB page seems to indicate that three of them were built?

X-Force was the only of its kind. It got relocated 3 times. Take a look here and see the relocations section.--Dom497 (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

That page makes things a lot clearer. Suggest we link to this page instead? Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• Suggest adding the height and speed record data to the main body rather than having it just in the lead? The lead should be a summary of the main body rather than the other way around.

The speed of the ride is still a notable absentee from the main body of the article and should be added. Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done Both height and speed are now in the ride experience section. Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing in any of the five sources which shows that Milky Way and Mantis took the records held by Iron Wolf; all these sources show is that the two coasters are taller and faster respectively. How will the reader know that there were no coasters built before these to take Iron Wolf's records? These claims will need better sources, I'm afraid.

* Suggest red linking and unitalicising 'Milky Way'. If it once held a world record for a coaster, someone someday should create an article on the coaster.

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• Is there a reason why 'Richie Rich' is written in the way shown in the article?

That is how the movie producers spelt it ([1]).--Dom497 (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

IMDB isn't a reliable source and the wikiarticle for the film uses a plain English title. I think this article would benefit from also doing so. Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:41, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• "The Last Stand is also a reference for the slogan for Apocalypse." To avoid repetition of the word 'for', suggest a slight rewrite: "The Last Stand is also a reference to the slogan afforded to Apocalypse" or similar. This statement also needs a reference, as none of the sources cited at the end of the sentence allude to this point.

Fixed.--Dom497 (talk) 20:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The sentence reads better, and I've removed the unnecessary italics at the start. Have you added a reference indicating that 'The Last Stand' is the slogan for the relocated coaster? Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:07, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to take a short break. Will continue shortly. Meetthefeebles (talk) 19:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Right, let's crack on...

• Ref.15 takes me to a photograph of an envelope on facebook. Unless I am missing something, I can't see anything here which says that they announced a new attraction on the date stated in the article. A better source would be most beneficial?

There is a post by Six Flags America on that photo which states it is a new attraction for 2012. I have updated the link of that reference (now #17) to point directly to that post. Themeparkgc  Talk  07:46, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

That's much better :) Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• Unlink Facebook per WP:OVERLINK.

Fixed.--Dom497 (talk) 17:56, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• Again, ref.16 just takes me to a bunch of timeline photographs. It seems as if you have synthesized a primary source here and a reliable, secondary source would be much better.

I have added a better ref.--Astros4477 (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

* I think "at Six Flags Great America" is superfluous having spent the last paragraph talking about Iron Wolf at it's original home. Simply "Iron Wolf closed on..." would probably be fine.

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

* I can't see anything in ref.5 which infers that the coaster was heading to a new home at Six Flags America– all it says it that the coaster was being shut down for permanent removal. I had a look around and this might help?

 Done Added that reference but also kept the one which was already there which provides evidence for the September 5 close date. Themeparkgc  Talk  08:04, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Both work well there, I agree. Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

* The whole section reads quite reads poorly and would benefit from a rewrite; unfortunately, the prose here is quite confused. I'd suggest something like: "Iron Wolf closed on September 5 2011 and work began on preparing it for transport to its new location. The new owners planned to add the roller coaster to the Skull Island section of their park, but before the relocation could take place, the Skull Mountain ride at Six Flags America had to be closed and demolished to make room for the new attraction." or something along these lines.

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  07:35, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• I would be very surprised if ref.21 is a reliable source. It looks like the twitter page of a fanclub of some sort...

I couldn't find another source for that.--Astros4477 (talk) 19:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

* Rather than referring to 'unknown reasons', suggest a rewrite of the closing sentence in this section; "The official facebook page had stated that the ride would officially open on May 25 2012 but this was later changed to 7 June 2012", perhaps? I would also suggest that there must be a better, secondary source to confirm the opening of a new attraction than a Facebook status and perhaps this could be cited instead?

 Done Themeparkgc  Talk  08:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• Another genuine question: are youtube videos such as that at ref.24 reliable sources? The guidance at WP:VIDEOREF isn't very clear on this point.

Yes.--Dom497 (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is. It looks a little like WP:OR to me and it certainly doesn't seem like a secondary source of the type preferred by wikipedia.Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I have added another ref in addition to the POV video,--Astros4477 (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• Suggest blue linking pre-drop

Fixed.--Dom497 (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• This sentence: "Each train has seven cars with riders arranged four across in a single row for a total of 28 riders per train." is a word-for-word copy of the source material and needs to be rewritten to avoid possible copyright issues.

Fixed.--Dom497 (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

• I watched the video in ref.26 and saw nothing to indicate that Iron Wolf had a brown track originally or that the track was the length stated. This needs referencing.

Thats because it doesn't need a ref. Look at the picture in the history section of the article.--Dom497 (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough :) Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

• I can't see anything in ref.18 or ref.27 to show that Iron Wolf had no theme. This also needs a reference to a reliable source.

I don't think this needs a ref. Most likely, a newspaper or other will not say that Iron Wolf had no theme. They just wouldn't comment on it.--Astros4477 (talk) 18:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• There is nothing in the video at ref.27 or ref.18 about the theme of the queuing area to the ride.

I have added a better ref.--Astros4477 (talk) 18:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• The last sentence could also benefit from a rewrite: I am not entirely sure how one "has to stand to oblivion"?

I just removed the sentance.--Dom497 (talk) 17:50, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I can see that you have begun to respond, so I'll give you the chance to look over these and make improvements. Meetthefeebles (talk) 20:44, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've responded to the comments made by the nominator and will pop this on hold for a week to see if improvements can be made. Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:12, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The article looks better for the changes made but there are outstanding issues so I'll keep the article on hold. Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

The article is being progressed (thanks to Themeparkgc for stepping in) but there are issues still outstanding and this one has been on hold for a while now. Can we get these wrapped up shortly as the week-long hold period has expired and this one can't really be kept on hold for too much longer... Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I think all the comments have been addressed. However, I might of missed something.--Astros4477 (talk) 00:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• Well, Meetthefeebles sesm to be gone since December 2, so I'm gonna close this as passed. Nominators, I will update the article and talk page, but list it yourself at WP:GA. Regards. — ΛΧΣ²¹ 22:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• I've listed it.--Dom497 (talk) 22:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)