Talk:First Battle of Dernancourt

Battle Honour

G'day @Peacemaker67: and @AustralianRupert:. From Rodger Battle Honours of the British Empire and Commonwealth Land Forces 1662-1991, p. 147 the Bn's of the AS 4th Brigade (13th, 14th 15th and 16th Bns) were awarded the battle honour ARRAS 1918 for the action on 28 March 1918. This battle honour was apparently awarded for a few different actions inc 28 March 1918 (its entry also includes a range of British, NZ, and Canadian units and was apparently for the German Offensive in Picardy and 26th August - 3rd September 1918 The Breaking of the Hindenburg Line). I hope this helps. Anotherclown (talk) 06:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. The 4th Brigade was detached from the 4th Division on 28 March, and was operating in the Third Army sector near Hébuterne when the other two brigades were fighting near Dernancourt in the Fifth Army sector further south. So I doubt Arras 1918 is the right one for the 12th and 13th Brigades. I'll keep digging. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@Anotherclown:: G'day, mate, thanks for this. Agree with PM above that it probably isn't "Arras 1918". I was wondering about whether "Somme 1916, '18" might be the battle honour that is relevant here for the 12th and 13th Bde units? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:39, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Ack I see what you mean. From Rodger p. 143 the battle honour SOMME 1918 was awarded for the period 21 March - 5 April 1918 (The German Offensive in Picardy) and 21 August - 3 September 1918 (The Advance in Picardy) it was awarded to a large number of British, South African, NZ and Australian units. The Australian units were the 13th Light Horse Regiment and the 1st-60th Bns (i.e. all of them). Unfortunately my source doesn't make it clear which action each unit was awarded the battle honour for though. Anotherclown (talk) 08:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Anotherclown! Do you have access to Battle honours of the British and Commonwealth armies by Anthony Baker? I'm wondering if it might specify. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't. Anotherclown (talk) 09:59, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

For interest, @Anotherclown and AustralianRupert: Baker (1986) says the battle honour for the Australian battalions involved in this one is "Somme 1918" which is split over two date ranges I - 21 March to 5 April (both Dernancourts and Morlancourt) and II for 21 August to 3 September. Weird how these battle honours were worked out. Baker is quite scathing about it, calling it "stupid" at one point. I've added that info to the article, along with some citations from Edmonds as suggested by Rupert at GAN, but given there are only two pages dedicated to it, he doesn't say much that's unique. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:12, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for following this one up, PM. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

CE

Did a cheeky little ce, added some biblio details, coords etc, rv as desired. Keith-264 (talk) 13:53, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Couldn't find casualties specific to Dernancourt for the Br divisions, apols. Keith-264 (talk) 14:43, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Was the Fifth Army "shattered"? Severely depleted certainly but its divisions kept fighting fir the duration of the battle.Keith-264 (talk) 14:47, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I'll check the reference re: Fifth Army. Thanks, but there are a few things I don't agree with in your c/e and additions. The 12th Division information isn't really about this battle, as the 12th Division was merely a flanking formation and not involved in the defence against the 50th Division (unlike 35th Division), the map in the infobox is too general for this battle (it would be more useful for the Background if I can squeeze it in), and the abbreviations of the German battalions are used in Bean. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:40, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Deayton (a battalion history) was the source, but reading Bean's chapter "Truth about Fifth Army", it is apparent Deayton is over-egging the pudding a bit. I've reworded it to better reflect what Bean says, and added a citation. Does the 35th Div book say who the GOC was at the time? I haven't been able to find that tidbit as yet. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:00, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

The edits were strictly suggestive; the map was the only one I could find with Dernancourt shown, Bean's OK with me. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 00:05, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Maj-Gen George McKenzie Franks from 7 Jul 1917 p. 127Keith-264 (talk) 00:19, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Bassin de la Somme

Found this if it's any help. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:22, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Allied

@Peacemaker67: Allied because French artillery was involved? Keith-264 (talk) 11:41, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Well, I could have put Australian and British, but figured Allied would do. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:56, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Aha! Australia wasn't a British ally. ;O) Keith-264 (talk) 12:54, 31 December 2017 (UTC)