Talk:Flag of Alabama

Restored earlier version

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've restored an earlier version of the article so we can discuss and come to consensus about the recent changes. Thank you! --Spekkios (talk) 19:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with the changes to this point[1]. I'm 50/50 on the Confederate flag being included in the article since the other flag is included, but I'm open to that if people think it's helpful. Is the flag ranking objectionable? I just saw it on the Flag of Florida article and thought it would be useful here as well.

This source[2] was added and I was reading it over. It looks like it covers the same ground as the Bell Allen Ross version so the source could be included there. Nothing really new there though. Thanks Nemov (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't mind having the ranking there, it's relevent information but if people don't like it then I don't mind removing it either. As far as the confederate flag goes I think we should have it in, but we do already have the other flag. If we do include it we need to create a better caption that relates back to the article better. --Spekkios (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

If it's included this caption covers it well: Battle flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Sources have said the Saint Andrews Cross was meant to preserve some of the distinctive features of the Confederate battle flag. That's what's covered in the included sources. Nemov (talk) 19:37, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Saying "Nothing really new there though." doesn't make it true or the reliable sources less reliable. Nemov and Spekkios continue to attack the sources themselves in blatant violation of WP:RS guidelines. It is not up to us to decide if secondary sources are doing "good research" or "adding anything new". We are supposed to report what reliable secondary sources say, not discount sources like the Denver Post and the Washington Post by criticizing their research. Desertambition (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

We can look at the Denver Post, Washington Post, Huffington Post, CNN (link to article), a dissertation, and numerous newspaper articles that explicitly say the state flag of Alabama is based on the Confederate battle flag. If these sources are not sufficient for you, nothing will be. Desertambition (talk) 19:26, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

And there are other sources that don't. We are summarising them in the article. Please stop personal attacks, thank you. --Spekkios (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

There were no personal attacks in my comment but I digress. The sources that say otherwise are clearly in the minority and the policy of WP:DUE weight says that articles must "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources."

There is a clear difference in how many reliable sources are saying the state flag is based on the Confederate battle flag and how many sources are saying otherwise. Desertambition (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Right, and that is what we are doing. Many of the sources from the news articles are one-liners and cite the same information we are citing. --Spekkios (talk) 20:09, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

You keep repeating that ad nauseam but that doesn't make it true.

This is from the CNN article above (one article of many).

"Since the St. Andrew's Cross is a widely used symbol, it can be easy to mistake Alabama's flag design as mere coincidence.

However, according to the 1915 Alabama Official and Statistical Register, the flag "was intended by the [state] Legislature to preserve in permanent form some of the more distinctive features of the Confederate battleflag, particularly the St. Andrew's cross." This origin is also cited by the Alabama Department of Archives and History." Desertambition (talk) 20:15, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

The 1915 Alabama Official and Statistical Register was published by the director of by the Alabama Department of Archives and History. It was his opinion. That opinion seems to be pretty common some 20+ years after the flag was changed. Now the current director of by the Alabama Department of Archives and History "believe the origins are unclear." This is all laid out in the current summary. This is the narrative we have from all the sources that have been shared here up to this point. You are entitled to disagree with how the summary is currently arranged, but it's difficult to look at the sources and make a definite statement one way or the other. Nemov (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

You removed the article I cited from 1900. Pretty clearly goes against the attempted narrative of Confederate symbolism only being mentioned 20+ years after the fact. Also, Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee's birthdays were made state holidays at the same time.

"In 1900, the Montgomery Advertiser published an article that advocated for increased public display of the state flag due to its Confederate symbolism, saying "No Alabamian will love it the less because it is evidently a memory and a suggestion of the Confederate battle flag"." Desertambition (talk) 20:37, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

As I mentioned earlier[3] I am fine with that. I didn't remove it. This is why I don't want to interact with you. It's a waste of time to argue with someone who doesn't take the courtesy to read and understand before arguing. Also, please update the link. You don't have it formatted correctly. Nemov (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

You did remove it and replaced it with a misleading, watered down version that said:

"No documentation in the legislative records indicates the flag was intended to commemorate the Confederacy. Local reporting around the time of the flag's adoption is unclear. One newspaper says the flag was a suggestions of the Confederacy and another stating the flag had no historical connections."

This is not accurate because these are not the only newspaper articles written about the flag and the article you're citing never said "the flag had no historical connections". The previous version was much more accurate and you felt fine adding the other article when it supported a narrative that did not talk about Confederate symbolism. Unfortunately, admins have said that we have to interact and build consensus and I am engaging in good faith despite you continuing to edit the article without finding consensus.

You're also not addressing your blatantly false claims that Confederate symbolism was only mentioned 20+ years after the flag was adopted. Desertambition (talk) 21:43, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Please update the citation so it's referenced correctly. Thanks. Nemov (talk) 22:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

• The confederate battle flag image must be located in the article, as multiple reliable sources state that this flag is an purposeful allusion to the confederate battle flag. --StellarNerd (talk) 18:48, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  If you look at the conversation we have been discussing what caption to use --Spekkios (talk) 21:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure about the caption being saying "same satire" since the battle flag is blue with white stars and Alabama's satire is red. That's why I was thinking something along the lines of Sources have said the Saint Andrews Cross preserves the distinctive features of the Confederate battle flag. Nemov (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  That's a fair comment. I'll update the caption accordingly. --Spekkios (talk) 21:36, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I've updated the caption. Let me know what people think. --Spekkios (talk) 21:53, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  The opinions of Spekkios and Nemov aren't the only two opinions that matter when building WP:CONSENSUS. Desertambition (talk) 21:56, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Neither is yours. --Spekkios (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not the only one who has spoken in favor of including information on Confederate symbolism but you two maintain a WP:TAGTEAM in order to edit this information out of the article. StellarNerd has spoken in favor of including the previous description [4]. Yet you keep editing it to push a narrative that goes against reliable sources. You keep talking between yourselves and then whatever you two decide is what you implement as "consensus". Desertambition (talk) 22:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  We do include information of confederate symbolism. I don't know of anyone who has edited that information out of the article. I certainly haven't. I can't find anywhere that StellarNerd has said the previous description is better, but if you can find it please let me know.

  I'm also not pushing any narrative. Our job is to summarise what sources say about the topic, which is what the article is. --Spekkios (talk) 22:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  There isn't much discussion going as much as blatant WP:STONEWALLING. This complete opposition to including information about Confederate symbolism goes against the vast majority of reliable sources. Nemov is unwilling to build consensus and Spekkios is preventing almost any edits about Confederate symbolism, including scrubbing the description of the Confederate battle flag from mentioning the word "Confederate".

  What is happening is a small group of users are refusing to build consensus and push their own historical revisionist narrative that is not supported by reliable sources. Countless reliable sources have said plainly the flag is inspired by the Confederate battle flag. The longer this article exists the way it is, the longer we are spreading misinformation.

  Just look at the conversations betweeen Nemov and Spekkios for a blatant example of WP:TAGTEAM in order to turn this page into their own WP:BATTLEGROUND. It's absurd. Desertambition (talk) 21:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  The confederate battle flag image should be in the article along with a caption that says that most reliable sources say it was the inspiration of this flag. --StellarNerd (talk) 18:31, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  I've changed the caption to one similar to Nemov's. Please tell me what you think. --Spekkios (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  That is not what I or StellarNerd were saying. Most reliable sources say the state flag of Alabama is based on the Confederate battle flag. You have again implemented your own change that you decided with Nemov without creating consensus. The word "Confederate" was also removed from the description. I believe more detailed edit summaries would be helpful as it's hard to understand what you're changing without viewing the diffs. Desertambition (talk) 23:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  The current caption specifically says that multiple sources state that the current Alabama flag preserves the features of the battle flag. I'm not sure what your objection is, as the caption seems to cover what you're talking about. --Spekkios (talk) 00:49, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

  The caption job is supposed to explain its inclusion in the article. It's not relevant how many sources there are, if there's tons of them if there's only a few of them. Battle flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. Sources have said the Saint Andrews Cross preserves the distinctive features of the Confederate battle flag. That's a true summary of why the flag is included. Nemov (talk) 00:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

  My only issue with this caption is that the Saint Andrews Cross itself doesn't preserve the features of the battle flag, but rather the Alabama state using the Saint Andrews Cross. I've updated the caption again, what do people think? --Spekkios (talk) 01:05, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I think we should call it the "Confederate battle flag", instead of the "flag of the Army of Northern Virginia", and change the link to target Flags of the Confederate States of America#Battle flag, which covers the design and use of the flag much more than does Army of Northern Virginia. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:09, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Changing the link is a good idea and I've gone and done it, although I don't think calling the flag the "Confederate battle flag" is, as my understanding is that the flag was only used by the Army of Northern Virginia rather than the confederacy as a whole. --Spekkios (talk) 01:16, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Sure, but it was thereafter most commonly called the "Confederate battle flag" or just the "Confederate flag". Readers can learn more about the nomenclature at the linked article. The sources that talk about the Alabama flag, like the Alabama archives source, discuss the similarities and use the common name. We should too. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:24, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

It reads kind of clunky. Maybe this instead? Sources have stated that the saltire in the Alabama flag preserves the distinctive features of the Confederate battle flag. Nemov (talk) 01:34, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Fair points. I've updated it to this caption. Thoughts? --Spekkios (talk) 01:40, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I think that's a big improvement. To those of you more familiar with the sources: can we incorporate info from the various caption drafts into the prose? Many of the info discussed above is not actually in the article text. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:50, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I believe the link below incorporates the Montgomery Advertiser article that's now missing since the article was rolled back. Nemov (talk) 01:57, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Here's the clip. Ping me if you'd like any others. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 02:01, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I've restored the section with that citation. I think that covers what was new information. Nemov (talk) 02:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

• I would argue that the summary copy is restored to this point[5] since the additional is in direct conflict with the current article narrative. That assumes the source says what the editor claims which I have in good faith. I've asked for the source to be clipped correctly so it can be reviewed. Can someone add it? Nemov (talk) 01:54, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

  Firefangledfeathers, thanks for adding the additional source. I had left that out because it was summarized in the Savannah Morning News source that precedes your addition.

  There was no state flag during the Civil War. For most of the four years between 1861 and 1865, a Confederate national flag flew over Alabama. State lawmakers adopted the current flag on Feb. 16, 1895. According to the legislation creating the new flag, it was to be a crimson cross of St. Andrew (the same emblem that is the key element in the Confederate battle flag) on a field of white. Nothing in the legislative records indicates the flag was intended to commemorate the Confederacy, said Bob Bradley, chief curator for the Alabama Department of Archives and History. But in interviews conducted by the founder of the state archives about two decades later, a number of participants acknowledged the design was drawn from the battle flag. Nemov (talk) 04:54, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

  The University of Miami source also cites Owen and uses the same quote. The Alabama.gov source does as well. I think there's enough to demonstrate that a bit of expansion is due. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 05:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Saint Andrew’s or Saint Patrick’s Saltire?

Why does this article (Alabama’s State Flag) state that it is a crimson cross of Saint Andrew on a white field, when a crimson saltire on a white field is the cross of Saint Patrick? 2001:E60:8E1A:386D:DF5:CDF:24C6:24BA (talk) 11:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Multiple sources included in the article refer to the Saint Andrew cross. Nemov (talk) 15:10, 11 November 2023 (UTC)