Talk:Flag of Vietnam

Meaning of the colors

Yellow represent the skin color of Vietnamese people

References, please. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 21:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

According to an article from here, the committee that designed the "red flag with yellow star" (including Mr Nguyen Huu Tien and Mr Le Quang So) stated that: - yellow is the national color of Vietnamese people ("màu vàng có ý nghĩa là màu dân tộc"); and: - red symbolizes revolution ("nền đỏ tượng trưng cho cách mạng"). Since that website is under censorship of the current Vietnam government, and it cites a current official in a government-sponsored conference, I believe that those information is not a fraud from anti-government sources. Thus these no implication of "red blood and yellow skin" as written in this article. Should we change that?Tryst Nguyen (talk) 01:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Flag of North Vietnam

Flag of Vietnam

The flags of the present Socialist Republic of Vietnam and the former Democratic Republic of Vietnam are the same, why do two image files exist on Wikimedia Commons, why are the colours different, and if the pantone>>RGBA were unofficially calculated by wiki editors, then perhaps we should delete one of the files? --70.21.18.134 18:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Thare not the same and the main "Article" page explains when the North and South reunified they changed from DRV to SRV and adopted the second flag with smaller star, straightened some parts and if the truth be known set out more to match the Communist Flag colors, just as Le Anh Huy says below. On another point I suggest a correction to the "Article" Page where they sho the 'Viet Cong' flag it should read as Wikipedia Article 'Republic of Vietnam' which was the name of the Southern parftner revolutionary Government of the day. It may be true they were 'Viet cong' but so too were those fighting to liberate Central Vietnam and it was not a name meaning a Government. At one time the name was even a derogatory word to many people of the World. On the other hand it was the same Madam Nguyen Thi Binh who was foreign Minister of the Republic of South Vietnam who later attended the Paris Peace talks to negotiate the ROV surender and end of any USA intervention, and the very same lady who is alive today and still very active in defending the Sovereignty and National security in SRV the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. Sure she has retired from her final post of Deputy President of the SRV Nation a few years ago. But she is none the less a heroine and former Minister of the ROSV to which this 2 striped red top half, blue bottom half, and central same gold star of the then DRV and now SRV. perhaps cross reference these pages to this point.--203.99.251.254 (talk) 02:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The design was modified in 1955, long before unification. Kauffner (talk) 13:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

From what I understand, only the second flag is correct with the colours. Vietnam's flag was never a "yellow and red" one, but a "gold and crimson" one. Le Anh-Huy (talk) 09:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The informal name of the flag is "cờ đỏ sao vàng" (red flag with the yellow star). DHN (talk) 20:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Nineteenth-century flags

I note the comment that Gia Long's flag was used in 1885 during the Can Vuong uprising. But what was the historical flag of Annam between 1840 and 1885, i.e. during the reigns of Minh Mang, Thieu Tri, Tu Duc, Hiep Hoa, Kien Phuc and Ham Nghi? As a student of the Cochinchina Campaign (1860s) and the Sino-French War (1880s), I was under the impression that it was plain yellow (this would explain the later French protectorate flag, which places a tricolour in the canton of an otherwise plain yellow flag). I note that a plain yellow flag has been included in the infoboxes for some of the battles of the Tonkin campaign and the Sino-French War, while Gia Long's flag has been used for the Cochinchina Campaign. Can anyone confirm what the historical flag of Annam was at this period?

Djwilms (talk) 01:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag

Could some one reduce this sector's size. The current contents are somewhat offtopic and might have some problems as following:

1/This article's topic is flag of Vietnam; not Vietnamese flag. Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag is a community flag; or flag of oversea Vietnamese. If we include this, we should include Vietnamese political flags as well (such as Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang) to maintain NOPV.

2/This sector is undue because most of this sector's contents is better written in Flag of South Vietnam and its size is 1/4 size of historical flags sector.--AM ^(talk) 17:05, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Where is the Thanh Thai's stuff came from?

Most of the present Vietnam and former South Vietnam sources suggested that the yellow flag is designed by the artist Le Van De in 1948 for the Bao Dai's pro-French government. So where is this "Thanh Thai" thing came from? This is an exceptional claim that nobody know about. It shouldn't be include in a Wikipedia page without some reliable sources. 198.214.186.128 (talk) 23:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that this question is being asked in good faith. You must know that there is an academic source cited in the article: "The yellow flag originated during the rule of Vietnam's Emperor Thành Thái (1890) of the Nguyễn dynasty." (Dang, Thanh Thuy Vo, Anticommunism as cultural praxis: South Vietnam, War, and Refugee Memories in the Vietnamese American Community.) Dang got this information from elders of the Vietnamese-American community, so this is apparently what the South Vietnamese government taught its citizens and soldiers about the flag. The Vietnamese Wiki article has this information as well. They seem to have got it from World Statesmen.org, but the point is that Vietnamese Wikipedians do not share your view that this is an exceptional claim. Sourcing can always be better. But the claim regarding Thành Thái is well sourced and appears on thousands of Web sites. So it is not a reason to be littering the article with a dozen s. Kauffner (talk) 02:21, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Democratic Republic of Vietnam

In general, there is no reason we have to call a subject by the name that it was called at the time. We can talk about Vietnamese kings who lived hundreds of years ago, although the word "Vietnam" was not common or official until the 1940s. "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" was never a common name for the communist state, either before or after 1954. Until 1954, it was generally called the Vietminh. It was a state located in the northern part of Vietnam, so I don't really see a problem with "North Vietnam". I'm fine with "Vietminh Provisional Government" as well. However, this name is also anachronistic since officially the provisional government lasted from August 1945 to February (or November) 1946. IMO, putting so many long-form names in the chart makes it quite long-winded. As these names are rarely used, they mislead the reader as to what these entities are usually called. The long-form names can be mentioned in the text, but I don't think there is a need to give them repeatedly. Kauffner (talk) 04:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• I changed it to "Flag of the Viet Minh state in northern Vietnam", which I think both avoids anachronism, and explains what it was using terms readers can understand. Kauffner (talk) 03:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Attempts to insert Chinese flags into the article Flag of Vietnam

Hi Kauffner! I appreciate your contributions to the article Flag of Vietnam. But please do not link the (current) Vietnamese flag to any Chinese flags without solid proofs! Considering the delicate relation between Vietnam and China, such contents are highly sensitive and might be offending. Only publish those contents if you have convincing and reliable sources, but not because the flags look similar. Thanks! Thachx (talk) 16:49, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

It is obviously relevant -- they are both Communist red flags. It's been in the article for a long time. Kauffner (talk) 17:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Please be more constructive! "It is obviously relevant" is not a valid argument. Thachx (talk) 12:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

You do realize that China and Vietnam are both communist states and have strikingly similar flags for this reason? The PLA flag was the model for other Asian communist flags. The flag of the Communist Party of Vietnam is identical to the flag of Communist Party of China. No one can know what was going on in the mind of the designer, but I am certainly not the first person to link the two flags, as you can see here.Kauffner (talk) 16:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The example you gave is not valid: it is the author's father's explanation, which is subjective and is by no mean a reliable source. If you are not certain about something, don't write it on Wikipedia. You can express your view on your own blog or personal website, but Wikipedia must remain objective. If you are so interested in similarities between communist flags, I suggest you write a separate article on comparison of communist flags and link it to the "Sea also" section.Thachx (talk) 09:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I took a look at the document you cited above. It is a personal note. It is not a book published by a professional publisher. Furthermore, the tone is so filled with hatred it can hardly be considered unbiased.Thachx (talk) 10:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

How people reacted to the flag is part of the story. The source doesn't have to be written by a flag expert to express a valid opinion on whether or not a Vietminh flag resembles a Chinese communist flag. To record only positive reactions and not negative reactions is inconsistent with WP:NPOV. Kauffner (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

"Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". My point is Wikipedia must only contain proven facts, not personal beliefs. See WP:VERIFY.Thachx (talk) 14:04, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The book is reliable as a source of the author's opinion. It is a "proven fact" that he had that opinion. As to whether the opinion has any validity, the reader can compare the pictures and decide for himself. Kauffner (talk) 14:33, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I wonder why you take well-known events of Vietnamese history and put {{citation needed}} after them. Do you suspect that I might have made them up? Of course, it's probably a good idea to cite them since we can't assume the reader knows anything about Vietnam. Kauffner (talk) 03:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The facts may be well-known for you and me but not for the general reader. I would have added the sources myself but I haven't had time to look for them.Thachx (talk) 09:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• This image has been in the article for several years. As you can see from the above, if I rebut one argument Thachx make, he moves smoothly to a different, and sometimes contradictory, argument. Kauffner (talk) 13:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Pointless to drag on like this. Request for WP:THIRD?Thachx (talk) 14:47, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I have replaced the challenged source with this. We certainly use plenty of official sources in the article. A source from a different perspective provides balance. That the flags look similar is obvious at a glance anyway. Kauffner (talk) 03:20, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

On your new reference:

1. Nguyen Dinh Sai's article does not mention the (old) PLA's flag. It does not qualify as a reference for the image.
2. The article only states that the Vietnamese red flag bears influences from the PRC's flag. That is not true either, since the PRC's flag was designed in 1949, i.e. eight years after the Vietnamese one. See: Flag of China.
3. The article reeks of political propaganda. For instance, it states that the four smaller stars on the PRC's flag "represents (North) Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia". How can one consider such an article neutral?

All in all, the view of anti-communist oversea Vietnamese communities on the read flag may be as biased as communist Vietnamese's view on the yellow one. I don't discard your opinion on the similarities of the flags, I only ask you to be careful not to include unproven facts into a Wikipedia article. If you need a place to express your own point of view, use a blog instead (see WP:SOAP). Thachx (talk) 10:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

Wikipedia requires WP:RS sources to assert something that may be controversial. The connection between the Chinese and Vietnamese flags is obviously controversial, so a reliable source should be provided. Thus far, that has not happened, so the connection should be removed. If the connection is as obvious as Kauffner asserts, it should not be difficult to find a PUBLISHED (not a blog article, or a translated letter) source making the connection, until then the removal of this content is justified. ReformedArsenal (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

• There is no controversial statement that needs to be sourced. It's an image, and no one denies that the image is as represented in the caption. Is there a relevant guideline? I've never seen anyone on other articles demanding that the relevance of an image be sourced. I am sure everyone has heard the expressions "Communist flag" and "red flag." Such expressions imply that these flags are understood to be part of a family of flags. If this is acknowledged, then of course the image in question is relevant. There are many state media sources used in the article. We can certainly include one from the overseas community. There is no such thing as a neutral source. NPOV is about balance among sources. The article in question was published on a professionally produced Vietnamese-language site, which is linked in the reference. The amature translation is just a crutch for English-speakers. It doesn't change the fact that this is an RS. The current Chinese flag is of course of a modified version of the old PLA flag. Or does that need to be sourced too?

It is certainly ironic that this issue is coming up now. The Vietnamese press currently reporting on the "scandal" of how Chinese flags were accidently put into Vietnamese textbooks. It apparently took a while for people to notice because the two flags are so similar. According to Dan Tri: Còn nếu bố mẹ nào mà không hiểu cờ Việt Nam và cờ Trung Quốc thì điều đó là đáng chê trách. / "It is reprehensible that many parents do not know the difference between the Vietnamese flag and the Chinese flag." Kauffner (talk) 16:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

The controversial statement that you have presented is that the two flags share a common origin, which is controversial, and does need to be sourced. If this is such a straight forward proposition, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a source to support it. ReformedArsenal (talk) 00:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

1. That the Vietnamese flag and the Chinese flag both are "communist" does not imply that one is the origin of the other.
2. The source you provided is invalid not because it is from the Vietnamese oversea community, but because its claims about the red flag is biased (see my refutation above).
3. "The current Chinese flag is of course of a modified version of the old PLA flag. Or does that need to be sourced too?": Yes, it does. Thachx (talk) 09:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• This is my opinion from an editor not actively participant in the dispute on this article. Beginning with the similarity of the co do sao vang with the "Chinese Worker's and Peasant's Red Army flag", the 2 flags clearly bear similarities with each other - a red background, a central star (both are communist symbols always found on communist flags, always using one or both of these elements). Anyone can judge for themselves and see the similarities between the 2 flags and see the similarities between all communist flags, it doesn't require a flag expert or academic to express this to prove it, and i cannot understand how anyone can deny seeing this relationship. Read more here Communist symbolism. This part about the relationship between the 2 flags has been on this article for a long time now, and if it was deemed truly controversial and illogical/senseless, it would've been challenged long ago, not now. I must add that it is likely that the co do sao vang got influenced in its design by the old Chinese Red Army Flag used in the 30s/40s since the Viet Minh led by Ho did spend time hiding and regrouping in southern China while fighting French imperialists, as this overlaps the same time the co do sao vang was designed, but it can't be influenced by something created in a later time. Also there's serious bias here, acceptable sources from overseas are challenged and labelled as propaganda, hate speech and "phan dong" (reactionary) whereas sources from the communist government are deemed automatically acceptable and neutral. Historians i've watched on both PBS and the CBC both say similar things on history episodes, that as long as historical and political subjects are created by humans, they can never be 100% unbiased and neutral, and they always have various degrees of bias. As this is the case, as stated in this site's NPOV policy, articles must contain content equally and thoroughly representing all viewpoints, and this is the guiding principle writing history and political encyclopaedia articles on Wiki and elsewhere.

"It doesn't require a flag expert or academic to express this to prove it" - Actually, on Wikipedia, it does. As EDITORS, we are not to take part in WP:OR, which this is. As I have said above, if this is such an obvious thing, it should not be hard to find a WP:RS who can validate the connection. "Historians i've watched on both PBS and the CBC both say similar things on history episodes" - Sounds like you already have the WP:RS so now all you need to do is cite them. ReformedArsenal (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

There are many articles with pictures on Wikipedia. Are you claiming that the relevance of each picture used must be sourced? In any case, there is a source now, just an issue regarding the source's political point of view. Kauffner (talk) 14:06, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The episodes i'm referring to are TV episodes i watched several years back, and they weren't about Vietnam specifically or about flags (WWII and Cold War respectively), so they're irrelevant here and it's difficult to find the exact episodes again. I'm not spending my money to purchase episode transcripts either just to prove my point. Nguyen1310 (talk) 01:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Even the exact identity of the designer of the flag of Vietnam remains unknown, so how can you be so sure about where his/her ideas came from?

"...as stated in this site's NPOV policy...": The first principle of WP:NPOV is "avoid stating opinions as facts". Thachx (talk) 09:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

And the very first sentence in WP:NPOV states "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly and proportionately". Nguyen1310 (talk) 11:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Then as I've said multiple times, if this is such an obvious thing, then the sources should be readily available. If there are no WP:RS asserting things that are controversial (the fact that someone here has disagreed enough to get into a big discussion over it shows that it is) then it should be left out of the article. Besides, simply because the flags share common elements does not imply origin. The Soviet Union flag bears symbol that looks like the Muslim Star and crescent but there is ABSOLUTELY no relationship... however someone doesn't need to be a flag expert or academic to see that there is a resemblance. What it WOULD take to support a connection is an expert in the history of the Soviet Union or Islam who has done the research to show the connection. ReformedArsenal (talk) 10:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

A Chinese communist star is somehow starkly different in look and meaning than a North Korean star or a Vietnamese communist star? Communist stars, hammers and sickles and red colours have large differences in look and meaning from each other? That makes no sense. The example of Soviet stars and Islamic star and crescents is totally illogical, as communist Soviet stars are meant to represent communism and other socialist elements, whereas an Islamic star and crescent are religious symbols pertaining to Islam/Islamic governments. I've never seen a Muslim group using a star on it's own to represent Islam, hence their symbol is called the star AND crescent. Even the colour scheme used in Islamic stars are different, usually green or white, NOT red or yellow like in communism. Nguyen1310 (talk) 11:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The sickle looks like a crescent to me... and I think anyone could look at that and see the similarity. According to the argumentation by those in this conversation who wish to make the connection between the Vietnamese and Chinese flag are making a similar argument. The fact that opinions are not universal or WP:V is why we need published WP:RS to make a statement on Wikipedia. ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Viet Tan is not a "blog site", its an organization and party advocating for democracy and human rights, just as sources from Hanoi government sites derive from the Vietnamese Communist Party. And, the Republic of Vietnam flag, the co vang ba soc do, was designed by the nationalist Emperor Thanh Thai in 1890 who was trying to resist the French, and it was one of the first original flags to represent Vietnam, north to south, so one can't understand how the origins of this flag can be questioned. I would guess that Hanoi says it's influenced by the American flag because of the 3 stripes representing the 3 Vietnamese regions (North, Central, South). Then if this is the case, why are the stripes on the co vang are of a brighter tone of red instead of the dark red/burgundy used on the U.S. flag? Why are the 3 stripes not alternating in colour like the American flag? Why not 10 to 15 or 13 stripes? Where did the yellow came from? Nguyen1310 (talk) 00:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

First, Viet Tan is a political organization, not a neutral academic source. Second, given the political tension between Viet Tan and the Vietnamese government (one does not recognize the other's legitimacy), Viet Tan's opinions on the red flag are as biased as Vietnamese government's opinions on the yellow flag. Thachx (talk) 09:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• As I understand it, the new argument is that just because the Chinese and Vietnamese flags are the same color, it doesn't necessarily have any significance -- perhaps just some sort of design coincidence. There are numerous sources that refer to the Vietminh flag as a "red flag": "The imperial colors were struck and the red flag of the new Viet Nam were hoisted."[1] "The Vietnamese students declared that, given their family's history as refugees, they cannot accept the red flag, but will continue to honor the yellow flag."[2] What does it mean for a flag to be a "red flag"? Here is Collins English Dictionary: "red flag n...a symbol of socialism, communism, or revolution." In other words, the description "red flag" is not primarily a reference to the color of a flag, but rather to its symbolism. Note that Chinese Nationalist flag is also red in color, and yet not a "red flag." Of course the communist red flags have a common origin. They trace back to the flags used by the Communards and the Jacobins. Kauffner (talk) 13:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

You are either misunderstanding or trying to divert the discussion: it is not about what the red background symbolizes, but about whether there are WP:RS asserting that the red flag of Vietnam is influenced by Chinese flags. Thachx (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

In that case, there shouldn't be any problem with the image itself, as long as the caption identifies it merely as another red flag designed in the same era. Kauffner (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Should a dog picture be included in the (wikipedia) article on cats because they both are mammals and domestic animals? If you want to provide more information on red communist flags, it suffices put a link to a list of communist flags in the "See also". I think an encyclopedia article should only concentrate on the article's main subject. Thachx (talk) 14:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

With dogs, you can fill up the article with pictures of different kinds of dogs. But in this case, we don't need more than one picture of the actual flag. Kauffner (talk) 07:21, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

"The flag first appeared in the southern uprising (Nam Kỳ Khởi nghĩa) of November 23, 1940 against French rule in southern Vietnam" This statement is only based on the source of "talks" from the Vietnamese government. There is no picture, no photo of southern uprising in 1940 that has a red flag and a golden star. Dieu Hoang (talk) 03:54, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

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