Talk:Flamboyant

Pfeffer's Flamboyant Cuttlefish

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if looking for the cuttlefish its at Pfeffer's Flamboyant Cuttlefish

Already on disamb page. -- Banjeboi 11:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Flamboyant Gothic

"Flamboyant" being simply an adjective, isn't the better title Flamboyant Gothic, with "architectural style" being understood?--Wetman (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No answer. Any problem if I move the article?--Wetman (talk) 06:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

What about Flamboyant (architecture)? -- Banjeboi 10:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, about the way Modern (architecture) would seem, no? That would require a piped link at every single mention.--Wetman (talk) 14:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Is Flamboyant Gothic what this is called in the architechure world? The other main question is where would most of our readers look to find this information? -- Banjeboi 14:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

There is also "Flamboyant style", about equally common, i'd say, though more ambiguous. i'm not sure i see the need to move it - there's little else on the disam page. We have Manueline etc. Johnbod (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally I would like the main Flamboyant to be the disam age with the 4-5 main related linked here and a wikt link. From what your stating it would seem Flamboyant Gothic would make the most sense for the architechure article with "Flamboyant style" redirected there and spelled out in that lede that they both refer to the same thing. -- Banjeboi 03:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the Pet Shop Boys song, & the very dubious dicdef, with no article, there is nothing else for "flamboyant" itself. This seems clearly the primary sense, from which all the others are derived. Johnbod (talk) 03:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Well there is but they are fine on the disam page, and the dicdef is fine as well. I think our readers will get what they are looking for ok. It could stay, it could move, either is fine for now. -- Banjeboi 11:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Connotation of gay

Today, isn't flamboyant used to describe people with the connotation of being gay? This is neither on this page nor the disambiguation.Naddruf (talk) 01:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Flamboyant and Perpendicular in England?

I'm curious why "Flamboyant and Perpendicular in England" is being proposed as a section on this page. The page on English Gothic Architecture uses the word "flamboyant" just once and only as an adjective. In addition, the French Wikipedia entry on Gothic architecture does not include any references to English monuments under the Flamboyant style section. Don't these English monuments best fit under the umbrellas of "Decorated" and "Perpendicular"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.104.49.81 (talk) 10:58, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, there's no reason for a separate section on England. It can go on to talk about Spain and Germany. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Why does this article:

1.) focus overly on France when Flamboyant is also known as the "First International Gothic" and did not originate in France, and

2.) include any mention of Perpendicular, which is a wholly different style with nothing to do with flamboyant?

Does anyone object if I remove this irrelevant material? GPinkerton (talk) 17:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

It focuses on France because that is how recent peer-reviewed scholarship engages in discussions about this style of architecture. I did not contribute any of the material on England and I am not interested in writing about the Decorated or Perpendicular styles—both of which have dedicated spaces in another article.

You need to sign your comments. Moreover, As cited below, the reliable sources do not deal exclusively with France, do not say the style is French, do not claim the style originated in France, and do not attribute its development to the French. GPinkerton (talk) 20:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Should article include countries other than France?

The question now arises whether this article should talk about any other country besides France. I had thought that Flamboyant was a general term for Late Gothic, but I see that's debatable. I would like to include Spain and Portugal, as well as a couple buildings in Italy, as example. What do others think? Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 09:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

That will be you being misled by French sources (again). Certainly Spain, with its own variant, & the Low Countries need coverage, & it needs constantly to be kept in mind that, whatever the labels, it wasn't that different from other versions of Late Gothic. England is probably the most distant. Some buildings in Italy & Portugal seem fine. Johnbod (talk) 10:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Based on my reading of recent sources in English, French, and German, the term "Flamboyant" is not a general term nor is it interchangeable with "Late Gothic." I think this article should focus on France, but also show how the style was related to developments in other polities. There are many cases in which architects from France left due to lack of work (Hundred Years' War) and took commissions in other regions of Europe. We also know that architectural drawings and written treatises circulated during this time period. This is how Flamboyant forms became part of the visual culture of other regions. I always feel there is a danger in suggesting one style "influenced" another because that is very difficult to prove short of primary source documentation. So, my opinion is that this article should focus on France, much in the same way the French Wikipedia article on Flamboyant Gothic does, while also noting clear examples of cross-cultural interactions, such as or Maestre Carlín, who left Rouen to work at the Cathedral of Seville, or the anonymous craftsman from Paris who designed a Flamboyant chapel in Silesia (recently published in JSAH by Jakub Adamski). Otherwise, this article could balloon and end up repeating content already in dedicated articles on topics such as the Isabelline style or Decorated style. Thanks so much for the improvements everyone is contributing to this article! It's great to see it develop fully. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.104.49.81 (talk) 19:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

So you think England should be included or not? SiefkinDR (talk) 14:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Not as an area where the general style was prevalent, but a mention of Perpendicular as the related English style should be there. Also, I think if you poke around sources in English you will find specific English buildings that have elements that are F rather than P, and talk of English influence on F. Johnbod (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, that sounds good. The source that is currently misleading me is actually not French but British, David Watkin's "History of Western Architecture", but I have others and I think I can put together a little piece on the British style. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 17:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I feel it is appropriate to mention the influence of English Gothic in some French monuments, especially parts of Rouen Cathedral, but it should not be overstated. Flamboyant in France quickly became its own thing as evidenced by the homogenous and groundbreaking design of Pierre Robin for Saint-Macou, Rouen. In fact, Robin consciously rejected all elements of English Gothic at the nearby cathedral as a source of inspiration for many reasons. See Linda Neagley's monograph on Saint-Maclou for more on why the architect and patrons of Saint-Maclou wanted to purge all "foreign influences" from their parish church (esp. pp. 73-77). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.104.49.81 (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Flamboyant is not exclusively or originally French, and neither is it "a general term for Late Gothic".

Late style of Continental Gothic (c.1375–mid-C16) that evolved from Second-Pointed Curvilinear work, especially the flowing forms of the tracery: it gets its name from the flame-like shapes bounded by the curved bars. In France its most outstanding manifestations were at the west porch of St-Maclou, Rouen (c.1500–14), and the west front of Troyes Cathedral (early C16) by Chambiges. Flamboyant tracery occurs elsewhere, including the British Isles (e.g. west window of York Minster).

The same source describes Flamboyant as "of the Continent" (not "of France"), and notes, for example, the Oudenaarde Town Hall and the Leuven Town Hall, the Hôtel de Savoie of Mechelen by Rombout II Keldermans, St Matthew's at Salford Priors, the tomb of Napoleon III in Farnborough, and the inspiration of the Chicago Tribune Tower. Absolutely nothing about being unique to France or the style being "French". GPinkerton (talk) 17:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

No claim is made in this article that Flamboyant is exclusively or originally French. There are plenty of examples from other parts of Europe that are discussed and illustrated in the article, including the Leuven Town Hall you mention above. In contemporary peer-reviewed scholarship, though, "Flamboyant" as a stylistic designator primarily refers to monuments constructed in France (Kavaler, 2012). However, according to Prof. Bork (2018), there were close parallels between the "uses of curvilinear tracery seen in the French Flamboyant Style and the English Decorated Style." He goes on to offer three possible reasons for this, which could be described in this article under "England." I don't wish to write on that specific topic, but, with Wikipedia being a collaborative effort, others are certainly welcome to contribute. I could help describe the connections between the Tour de Beurre and the Chicago Tribune Tower, but my book on that is in my office, which I can't access for the next few months.

No direct claim is made, no, but the fact that the France section comes first and takes up much of the article and is followed by sections on Notable Examples of Religious buildings in France and Notable examples of civil architecture in France and then a very short Examples of the Flamboyant Gothic Style outside France taken together strongly suggests Flamboyant has some special relationship with France (modern or mediaeval), French culture, or French people. GPinkerton (talk) 22:46, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

I think I understand your point of view. I would agree that the article needs some discussion of the relationship between English Decorated and French Flamboyant and that that discussion should appear near the beginning. There are definitely aesthetic similarities between the two in their shared use of curvilinear forms amongst other things. However, would you agree that the phrase "Flamboyant style" (with a capital "F") primarily refers to monuments in France in contemporary scholarship? I ask because when I open my recent volume of Banister Fletcher, Calkins' Medieval Architecture (Oxford UP), Stokstad's Medieval Art, and Wilson's Gothic Cathedral, there are no monuments in England listed under "Flamboyant style." Likewise, there are no monuments in France listed under "Decorated style." An article this year in the peer-reviewd JSAH also used "Flamboyant style" to refer to the work of fifteenth-century architect from Paris. Finally, the lists of monuments at the end of the article were imported from the French Wikipedia article on Gothic architecture some years ago. These could be modified easily or expanded into formal lists in the future. 208.104.49.81 (talk) 23:51, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

See the quotation above from the Oxford Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture (3rd ed., 2015), from which all the examples I cited are also drawn, including the West window of York Minster and St Matthews, Salton Priors. I also have trouble understanding your point about the recent Banister Fletcher: the 2018 21st ed. mentions Flamboyant at least 16 times in its chapter on Spain and Portugal, 1200–1492, pp. 978–992, in that context often qualifying it as Northern Flamboyant or French Flamboyant (that is, as Flamboyant that is related to buildings in France, rather than because Flamboyant is inherently French or of France). Significant discussion of the Iberian peninsula needs to happen alongside the buildings in what is now France and the BENELUX. I would argue in favour of chronological or stylistic arrangement, rather than by modern political boundary that leads to the description of Strasbourg Cathedral as "French" and similar absurdities. GPinkerton (talk) 01:02, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Terrific! I look forward to reading your contributions about the Iberian peninsula. 208.104.49.81 (talk) 01:17, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Nothing in this discussion has made me shift my view expressed at the top of this section. Obviously at the period concerned "French culture" and "French people" embraced elites in the Valois-ruled Burgundian Netherlands well enough. 19th century revivalism can of course pop up anywhere, & is a different matter. Johnbod (talk) 00:06, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

The Habsburg Netherlands which extended all through the latter part of the Flamboyant "period" (since we fetishize the "genuinely" mediaeval, apparently) is hardly covered by "French" though. ("French" is still a massive stretch for mediaeval Flanders in any case.) GPinkerton (talk) 01:02, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Perpendicular

I had removed discussion and illustrations of perpendicular Gothic, which really have no place here. Perpendicular and flamboyant are related only insofar as they were contemporary and Gothic; they were otherwise very distinct and opposed. Information from the section could be rescued and put into other articles and can be copied from the diff here. GPinkerton (talk) 23:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

York Minister West window

I removed the image of the Great West Window from the section because the web site of York Minster, on its Great West Window Fact Sheet, says the window was made in the 1330s in the "French curvilinear decorated style." It says nothing about Flamboyant. According to the lead of the article, Flamboyant was from 1375 to the mid-16th century, after the window was made.

Once again, I would really, really appreciate it if you would not be sarcastic and insulting when talking to other editors. Please. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 09:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Please understand that stylistic periodizations are not absolute, and flamboyant is not a period but a style. The Oxford Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture says of flamboyant:

Late style of Continental Gothic (c.1375–mid-C16) that evolved from Second-Pointed Curvilinear work, especially the flowing forms of the tracery: it gets its name from the flame-like shapes bounded by the curved bars. In France its most outstanding manifestations were at the west porch of St-Maclou, Rouen (c.1500–14), and the west front of Troyes Cathedral (early C16) by Chambiges. Flamboyant tracery occurs elsewhere, including the British Isles (e.g. west window of York Minster).

If you think this is self-contradictory, take it up with James Stevens Curl. GPinkerton (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The factsheet on the West Window on the official site of York Minster says: "Architecturally, the tracery is in the French curvilinear decorated style and marks a departure from the otherwise geometric tracery of the rest of the Nave." It dates the window to 1338-39, which predates the Flamboyant style. I think this is reliable source. The factsheet is dated 2013. Why do you think your source is more correct than the Cathedral page? In my experience, if something is disputed, you leave it out. Why should that not be the case here? Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

It's not disputed. You are making an argument ex silencio. The notable architectural historian and editor of a dictionary of architecture dated 2015 says the window is an important example of flamboyant tracery. Some factsheet produced by a religious organization does not contradict this, and you are using this non-contradiction to decide on your own authority that Curl is wrong. If Curl says it does not "predate" flamboyant, then it does not. It may predate the widespread popularity of style, but that's irrelevant. The east window of Carlisle cathedral is flamboyant, and in the upper parts date from 1350. GPinkerton (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@SiefkinDR: I've reverted your additions of the east window at York. It' the west window that's considered flamboyant, not the east. (You can tell from the pictures.) GPinkerton (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@SiefkinDR: See above. GPinkerton (talk) 17:39, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

What I object to most is your insulting tone. Calling the press release and fact sheet of the education department of York Minster, the owner and restorer of the window, "Some factsheet produced by a religious organization" is a good example. You should listen a little sometimes to other sources besides your omnipresent Mr. Curl. SiefkinDR (talk) 18:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

@SiefkinDR: And what, it's all my fault you've confused east and west and refuse to cite any sources? GPinkerton (talk) 21:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

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Jehan de Dunois

Isn't Jehan de Dunois the half-brother not of King Charles VI but of Charles of Orléans? As I don't have access to the source, I'd be glad if someone could tell me if Emery (2015) actually writes about this.--Nux-vomica 1007 (talk) 08:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)