Talk:Flora Botton

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 06:42, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

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• ... that Mexican sinologist Flora Botton was rescued by an American soldier when being transported on a train from Bergen-Belsen in 1945? Source: "La profesora, investigadora, traductora y escritora mexicana —de origen griego y sefaradí— especializada en la historia de la cultura, la filosofía, la historia y la sociedad china" [Mexican professor, researcher, translator and writer —of Greek and Sephardic origin— specializing in the history of Chinese culture, philosophy, history and society] and the rescue part: p 6, p 147 (Note the top of the page confirms they were on a transport train and her name is shown in the next to the last paragraph on that same page).
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Wolfram Menschick

Created by SusunW (talk). Self-nominated at 19:44, 12 April 2022 (UTC).

• Article is new, lpng enough and neutral. It is sourced with inline citations. "Earwig's Copyvio Detector" reports moderate text similarities resulting from proper nouns. The hook is well-formatted, and interesting. Its length is within limit. Its fact is accurate with inline citation. QPQ was done. Good to go.— Preceding unsigned comment added by CeeGee (talk • contribs) 11:59, April 21, 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW and CeeGee: The article identifies Botton's nationality as Greek and Spanish, and I cannot find mention in the article that she is a Mexican citizen. Is it accurate to describe her as a Mexican sinologist? Z1720 (talk) 20:33, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Z1720 What else could you call her? The only place she has ever been employed is in Mexico, so logically she is a Mexican sinologist, regardless of her Greek-Spanish nationality. Her nationality (for the record, legally citizenship, i.e. rights within a country, is not the same as nationality, i.e. belonging to a nation and internationally recognized rights between countries) has nothing to do with where she lives and works. How could you call her a Greek or Spanish sinologist if she never earned a degree in any of those countries, was never certified to teach there, nor has ever worked as a sinologist in either of those places? Professional certifications between countries don't necessarily transfer to another country. Sorry, but your question is confusing to me. SusunW (talk) 20:50, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I guess in simpler terms, she is credentialed in Mexico and not elsewhere. SusunW (talk) 20:56, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW: Nationality, cultural identity, and if a person is a member of a country are tricky subjects that can be debated endlessly. However, in my opinion, it would be original research to assume that a person is Mexican because they have lived and worked in Mexico for the majority of their life. As for credentials, more information is needed to determine if this verifies Botton as Mexican; to give an analogy, a teacher can be credentialed in England, but that does not mean that their nationality is English. Are there sources that verify that Botton is considered Mexican? Z1720 (talk) 21:02, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Z1720 You seem to be conflating nationality with certifiction. She is credentialed in Mexico, thus she is a Mexican sinologist. She wouldn't necessarily be credentialed in Greece, or Spain, or anywhere else. Her license to teach and research are documented to be from Mexico. SusunW (talk) 21:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm still apprehensive about promoting the hook as is, but I will not object if someone else decides to promote. The prep I'm working on is almost full, so I will let others take a look at this for other prep sets. Z1720 (talk) 21:16, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

That's cool Z1720 no worries. SusunW (talk) 21:27, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Names?

@SusunW: I didn't even realize this was one of yours! But as long as you're here, can you write a few words about her many names? When I was looking for an image, I found her referred to as Flora Botton Burla and Flora Botton Beja, enough so that I initially thought these were two or even three different people. (Especially since they had different hairstyles!) I think this article needs some explanation - are these married names, or what? --GRuban (talk) 15:19, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

GRuban You are magic! Thanks for the photo. I wish I knew and I wish I had an explanation. I don't. I first thought she is Greek, so the Mexican naming pattern of father's surname followed by mother's surname wouldn't apply. But then the Literary Encyclopedia said she was naturalized as Spanish and of Sephardic origin, so then I wondered if Beja was her mother's maiden name. Never found anything that gave a maiden name for her mom. Then using the list of her publications, I discovered the Burlá surname. That made me suspect that maybe these were husbands, but I never discovered anything that mentioned a spouse. Unfortunately Mexican newspapers that have been digitized are only available on microfilm in Mexico City, which is about 35 hours from here. It was total luck that I discovered that 1956 newspaper piece, but it only gives Botton. I honestly thought about writing her and asking her, but thought it might be untoward (since there just doesn't seem to be any information published (or digitized) she might not want to focus on the associations). Then I thought maybe after it has been published for a bit, new sources might surface. (I've had that happen a lot). SusunW (talk) 15:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I admit, I'd ask; it's confusing just at first glance, since her papers are credited some to one and some to another. And names usually tend to be important to people. Personally, when I write an article about a living person, who is not really a public figure, I usually reach out to them to ask whether they have any objections. Most don't object, and are even happy, but I have encountered two who didn't want an article, so I didn't write one, and deleted one that I had basically written but not pushed to main space (whimper; it was soo interesting!...). But that's me - I'm lucky to write one article a season, while you write several every week, so maybe you don't have the time. (Also, sometimes the answers are "I'll tell you, but without any sources you can use to put it in your article". For Laura McKinlay Robinson, "McKinlay" isn't actually strictly her middle name, despite sources saying it is; and for Karolína Huvarová, Oravski is ... let's just say she didn't want more details on that name in the article, even though that was how she won a few awards. In each case, I know what the names are, but have no usable sources!) Anyway, your call. I think this is her Facebook page, https://www.facebook.com/flora.bottonbeja and she wrote there she studied in London and Michigan, so likely speaks English. Though, of course, she's nearly 90. Also ... she looks like a different person there. The YouTube video I got the image from her sitting behind a namecard "Flora Botton Burla" and says she's from UNAM, so I really, really hope she just changed her hair drastically, and there aren't two Flora Bottons at UNAM. --GRuban (talk) 16:40, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually ... are you really, really sure Flora Botton Beja and Flora Botton Burla are the same person? Because https://www.facebook.com/people/Flora-Botton-Burl%C3%A1/100011560666935/ is Flora Botton Burla, professor at UNAM, from Thessaloniki, but does not say she's a Sinologist, she seems to be a translator. And she has a short hairstyle, like in my image, though black rather than white. Unlike Flora Botton Beja, who is a professor at Colmex, and is a Sinologist, but does not say she's from Greece, and has red or blonde hair, medium length. This would be bad if we've conflated two different people! --GRuban (talk) 17:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW: The more I look, the more they look different. I can't find anything about Flora Botton Beja that says she's from Greece, or anything about Flora Botton Burla that says she's interested in China. And the images on the Facebook pages look like different women. I think we need to separate this article into two, and possibly move it to Draft space while we're doing it. I'm so sorry. --GRuban (talk) 17:25, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

GRuban The literary encyclopedia and other sources show her published works in both names. It seems highly unlikely that they are two different people to me. SusunW (talk) 17:36, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

In any case, I have sent her a message and we'll see if she answers. I don't think she is regularly on Facebook, as her last message is from 2020. This from 1949 would tend to support that Beja was her mother's surname, but I truly don't know. SusunW (talk) 18:08, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I do think they are different. Here is Botton Beja's resume on her official Colmex web site. It doesn't mention any of Botton-Burlá's books, translations and poetry. Here is a YouTube video of Botton Beja also from 2018, she looks nothing like Botton-Burlá's short white hair in that image I uploaded also from 2018. I see what you mean about Facebook, but Botton Beja's email is given on that official page, https://ceaa.colmex.mx/personal-academico/botton-beja-flora/semblanza, and she (unlike Botton-Burlá) seems to be an active professor, so that might be a good way to reach her. I can write there if you like, as I do think she reads English. --GRuban (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

GRuban it is all very curious. The 1949 link above says Botton Beja was definitely born in Thessaloniki, while the FB page you found on Botton Burlá says she was born in Thessaloniki. (By the way, I sent the message to Botton Beja's FB page) What are the odds that 2 different women named Flora Botton were born there and migrated to Mexico becoming academics? Perhaps if you write to her at Colemex, she will see that there are several people trying to write an accurate biography. Hopefully, she will answer one of us. SusunW (talk) 18:25, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Will write. Very curious indeed, that migration card does say Botton Beja! Until I looked at that, I was willing to bet money... --GRuban (talk) 18:36, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I know. It's totally bizarre. SusunW (talk) 18:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

GRuban I also picked up that the migration card (from 1949) says she was born in 1953. That is impossible given that she would have been born after the record was made. Obviously a typo as it also says she was 16 when she entered in 1949, i.e. born 1933, which corresponds to the info in the 1956 article. SusunW (talk) 18:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

GRuban Bravo! She answered. Apparently good odds, as unlikely as it seems. Sinologist is Botton Beja and her first cousin is Botton Burlá the translator. I've written her back (and copied you on the e-mail) to make sure that all of the information in this article is about her because the sources are conflating her cousin and her. SusunW (talk) 19:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Nice that she has written and confirmed the details now in the article are correct, but she didn't answer specific questions. *Sigh* At any rate, I have created a preliminary wikidata entry for Botton Burlá] which may help avoid this type of confusion in the future. Though unfortunately we can't fix the errors in the sources which also conflated the two women. SusunW (talk) 20:35, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The good news is she is responsive, and does speak English! Unfortunately, we - and I'm using the anti-royal we here, meaning mostly you - need to confirm the most interesting details now. Which Flora Botton was rescued by the US serviceman from the Nazis? Surely not both? Did they both come from Greece to Mexico, or was one born here? I'm guessing you're mostly interested in the feminist magazine angle - which one was that? Unfortunately I'm not going to be of much help here; I'm trying to resurrect an article about a rather hilarious gentleman from the fine state of Florida. --GRuban (talk) 21:07, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I specifically asked her if the 1956 article was about her, whether she created the gender studies curricula and whether her PhD is from Michigan. Her answer just said the information in the article is correct (I sent her the link after deleting information about her cousin). I'll give her some time, maybe she'll reply again with more detail. SusunW (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2022 (UTC)