Talk:Florence Cathedral

old

Can anyone figure out if it's Santa Maria del Fiore or Santa Maria dei Fiori ("of the flower" vs. "of the flowers")? I thought it was the latter, and Google gives lots of hits for both. - Montréalais

It is the former (Santa Maria del Fiore) in all the books I have seen having researched the dome of it for a paper - 24.5.100.229

does it matter... i mean it isnt that big of a difference

Actually, yes, it does matter. People come to this website looking for facts, so precision is very important. 71.198.43.182 (talk) 20:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

size

i cant find out how big it is anywhere!

My art teacher said it was 106 ft high.

According to Michele Fanelli (an engineer who has worked on the maintainence of the dome and who wrote a book -- Brunelleschi's Cupola -- with Giovanni Fanelli (brother?), the height of the drum supporting the dome is 53.85 m. The dome itself adds another 35.75 m (about 117 feet Brit measure), for a total height of 89.60 m. The climb to the top from ground level is 463 steps. You can do it in 10 breathless minutes so long as you are not behind a slowpoke.

216.113.201.242 00:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Alan Donald (donald@portal.ca)

spelling

In "transcribe a circle on a kone face", is "kone" an obscure architectural term, or should it be corrected to "cone"? Wdfarmer 04:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Must be the work of some vandal. I've changed it to "cone". JoJan 11:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

wrong info

I cut this sentence about the dome: One obscure architect at the time even proposed to fill the Duomo with soil before the dome was built so that it could be built on top of the shaped dirt (it was not yet known how to build a dome with that much weight and magnitude). When asked how to get the dirt out, it was proposed that the city should fill the dirt with coins and the paupers would eventually empty the dome.

This is popular legend about the Pantheon in Rome, which has a large dome too. The exact description of the legend can be found in this book: Guida all'Italia leggendaria, misteriosa, insolita e leggendaria, Volume 4 (Lazio, Rome section), Oscar Mondadori, Verona, 1971 --82.104.171.102 12:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC) oops I was not logged on --Sailko 12:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with building the dome was not that the formula for concrete had been lost, as the article states. The difficulty was that no dome that large had been built: it wasn't possible to find timbers large enough to create the centering, the weight of the centering would also have been a problem, etc. Brunelleschi solved those problems, but the exact nature of his solution is still not known. Ross King, in his excellent book, "Brunelleschi's Dome," goes into this in some detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.236.232 (talk) 22:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

title

Isn't this best known as the "Florence Duomo", or some such? I've been in Florence twice (most recently, er, yesterday), and I've never heard its proper name before. john k 02:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Santa Maria del Fiore" is the official name of the Duomo. Any other name would only lead to confusion. JoJan 16:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Whuh? How would Florence Duomo or Duomo of Florence possibly lead to any confusion? There is only one Duomo in Florence. Wikipedia naming conventions specify that we use the "most common name", not the "official name". john k 19:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely it should be either Duomo di Firenze or Florence Cathedral? I'd be in favour of the latter: use English.--Stonemad GB 09:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this si a weird name for the page. It should be called the Florence Duomo or something like that. I lived in Florence, was in the duomo piazza every day, and i have never heard it called Santa Maria del fiore. Frithjh 03:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course you heard it called "duomo" in Florence: the word is just Italian for cathedral. It's not a proper noun.82.27.181.141 (talk) 09:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Although duomo is simply the Italian word for cathedral, this particular cathedral is known in English as The Duomo; it has no other name. Calling it Florence Cathedral is itself confusing.

Nuttyskin (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, really? You realize this thread is 16 years old? Johnbod (talk) 01:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Design

I've scanned through the article, but I didn't find any mention of Arnolfo's interesting design. Most churches are designed in the shape of a cross with the nave, 2 transepts, and apse. However, Arnolfo went a step further. When he designed the cathedral, he put 5 chapels in each of the transepts and the apse, so if looking at a blueprint, it resembles a flower. . .florence, santa maria del fiore, flower. . .

I cannot find any reference to this. But if you have, then add this information to the article, stating your reference(s). JoJan 14:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

History

The article says that Arnolfo's original design was reduced in size--actually, it was increased in size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.128.37 (talk • contribs)

Can anyone here tell me what this thing is made of besides stone?

The domes, and I expect much of it behind the stone facing, are brick. The facade & most of the walls are different colours of stone, mostly marble. Johnbod 17:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

PLANS & DRAWINGS OF Santa Maria del Fiore (Il Duomo)

Does anyone know if these plans are PUBLIC DOMAIN. If yes, where can they be accessed? thanks in advance the colour guru124.180.214.183 00:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Duomo of Florence → Florence Cathedral — a) Consistency with other Cathedrals, b) People are more likely to search on other titles such as Florence Duomo than the rather awkward English of the present title, c) Use English Johnbod 15:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Since this is not a vote, please explain the reasons for your recommendation.

• Support as nom Johnbod 15:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. We have words in English for both Firenze and duomo, and if we change one, it makes sense to change the other - particularly when this will make the title easier to understand, and it appears to be the most popular English title. Dekimasuよ! 03:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. —  AjaxSmack  07:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. Also, it would be very easily recognized by English-speakers & it would make linking to the article easy and second nature. - Ev 20:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Comment: I don't really see how the present title makes sense duomo is Italian, Florence is not, so if we are having duomo we should have Il Duomo di Firenze. The English version Florence Cathedral sounds like a brand of downmarket English cheese or some sort of 1960s song. Personally I would like to see Cathedral of St Maria del Fiore, Florence or even Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore. Cathedral of St Mary of Florence sounds wrong to my ears and no one would search for that. Whatever is selected there needs to be plenty of redirects as the red links in this paragraph illustrate. Giano 20:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Current redirects are:Florence Cathedral, Florence cathedral, Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore (previously title I think), Duomo (Florence), Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence), Florence Duomo, Santa Maria del Fiore, Duomo di Santa Maria del Fiore, Santa Maria di Fiore,Il Duomo !, Cathedral of Florence, Brunelleschi's Dome, & maybe some I've missed. You could make up a whole cheese counter from that lot. I think the lesson is - keep it simple. Johnbod 21:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia names things based on how they are named in the English-language literature. Personal naming preferences really aren't important. Some evidence needs to be provided in favour (or against) the options based upon actual usage. Noel S McFerran 17:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Well you are the English speakers - what do you say? How do you refer to it? Giano 18:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ghits: "Florence Cathedral" 54,100 [1]

"Duomo of Florence" 19,200 [2]

"Florence Duomo" 28,800 [3]

"Cathedral of Florence" 30,300 [4]

"Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore" 546 [5]

"Cathedral of St Maria del Fiore, Florence" 0

"Santa Maria del Fiore" gets 105,000 (English) hits, but of course many will be combined with Basilica, Cathedral etc.

I was about to say that I don’t find Duomo of Florence particularly jarring as duomo, unlike dom, is a well-established loan-word in English. And I would have been wrong! It’s not in my copy of the Collins Concise Dictionary. —Ian Spackman 06:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It's in my Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary from 1961 so Duomo is clearly a well established loan word. In my experience people use the proper noun 'The Duomo' to refer in shorthand to the entire building. --Joopercoopers 11:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

There is also the question of what the best name is in a book/site/list devoted to Florence, as opposed to the title to use in a non-specific context, as here. Johnbod 20:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I want titles of buildings to do two things: to let the reader know where to look in the index of a ‘proper’ book on architecture (which I suspect in this case means Santa Maria del Fiore); but also to be easily identified by the non-specialist when it appears in a category listing (which means we need the word Florence and either Cathedral, or Cattedrale). The requirement for a page title to be category-friendly, by the way, probably means that we should almost always include a placename in the title of an article about a building.

So, I guess, Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence Cathedral). Or possibly Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence)—I am sure can expect our readers to guess what cattedrale means.

I wonder if it might be worth reviving the debate over Wikipedia:Naming conventions (architecture)? I wouldn’t have much to contribute beyond what I have just said. But it would be good to have some guidance from people knowledgable about the subject. —Ian Spackman 06:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Duomo of Florence to Florence Cathedral as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 08:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I read the move discussion, but I still feel like this title is so awkward and weird. In english I feel like it is almost always called "the Duomo", although that is informal and dependent on context. I feel like fewer people know it as the "Florence Cathedral." Duomo of Florence still seems better. Maybe we can think of another alternative as well. Bonus Onus 21:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"Florence Cathedral!" Unspeakably foolish and ignorant. Who can keep up with all the "decisions" being made in this manner?--Wetman 04:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

• Daft move indeed. In this move to uniform the world, are our English friends going to have London Cathedral forced upon them? - Will they even know where it is? Giano 06:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I really deplore this obsession with moving everything to English translations, even when that isn't the common name. This edifice is always known as the Duomo. I'm English. I've visited Florence. And no English-language guidebook I've seen refers to it as "Florence Cathedral". Wikipedia policy says "use common name" not "translate everything into English even when it then becomes completely unrecognisable to everyone who knows it". -- Necrothesp 09:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

All possible variant names, and some impossible ones, are redirects, and the text of the article does not use the term. See the ghit survey above also. Johnbod 23:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The obvious solution is to request a page move here too. Giano 10:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Not really. London, Paris, Rome, Edinburgh, Vienna, Prague, Madrid & New York are among the cities that just don't have a Cathedral referred to as foo Cathedral (or Duomo). Of course we all know what all of those are called, don't we? Johnbod 23:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Google is not a particularly reliable source and should not really be used to prove anything. Searching for "Florence Cathedral" produces many hits that are actually "Florence's cathedral" (not the same thing at all) and sites which have been translated verbatim from the Italian. In addition, we have to remember that the internet is dominated by Americans, many of whom seem incapable of accepting that not everything has to be translated into English (hence the common retention in America of Marseilles and Lyons, which haven't been used in the UK in decades). Much more reliable, to my mind, are English language guidebooks. And reputable guidebooks almost all refer to the edifice as the Duomo. -- Necrothesp 08:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Ian Spackman & I cover that point in the debate above. "What-the-guidebook-calls-it" and the correct title of a WP article are often different things. Should all Italian cathedrals be titled with "Duomo"? 11:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnbod (talk • contribs)

Yes, if that's what they're commonly known as! -- Necrothesp 11:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is a simple thing being laboured so? If there's no agreed anglicised nomenclature, we call buildings in non-english speaking countries by there local names - Château de Fontainebleau, Angkor Wat, Masjid al-Haram etc. So we just need to agree if it's the Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore or the Duomo di Santa Maria del Fiore - any number of other possibilities, for those who don't know the full name, can then by conjured up as redirects. --Joopercoopers 11:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - the problem is there is no agreed Italian nomenclature! Just out of interest, do you think all sixty-odd Italian Cathedrals should move to the "proper" names? The French ones used to be like that (not changed by me) & I can't tell you how useless and unhelpful it was. Johnbod 23:29, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it seems even more obvious when we find Basilica di San Lorenzo di Firenze alive and well and living happily in wikispace. Or should we rename it Florence Cathedral II - this time, the Medici need somewhere to lie? --Joopercoopers 12:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

My opinion, for whatever it matters, is the current English title: "Florence Cathedral" with the ample list of redirects listed above. In conversational Italian I call it "il duomo", and when discussing it in English I happily interchange "duomo", "Santa Maria del Fiore", "cathedral", and "basilica". I'm sure we can also find plenty of alternative transliterations if we turn to nineteenth-century English travel literature. I also don't think we should start changing the titles for German Kathedrale to "Dom", just because that's what they call it. Ultimately I like the current title because it provides the basic, no-nonsense description of the object in question. We have a whole article that follows to give all of the alternative descriptions. However, I see no reason for the official title to be littered with Italian words and prepositions when unnecessary, as in Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore or Duomo di Santa Maria del Fiore. Basilica of Santa Maria del Fiore, Florence or Cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiore, Florence successfully integrate proper English with official name (and location). Now we should move over to San Lorenzo and get rid of those prepositions (but stop short of translating it to "St Lawrence"), i.e. Basilica of San Lorenzo, Florence --Stomme 16:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

How about titling it in it's literal english translation? In other words, " Cathedral of St. Mary of the Flower" After that, in the subheading, you can mention it's Italian spelling as well as it's common name amongst English speaking peoples. In that way, you establish it's precise name and provide for other more familiar names that may change over the course of time. -2 November 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.17.99.90 (talk) 17:32, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The facade

With all the new images of the Duomo's facade, I wonder if anybody is aware of its date? --Wetman 12:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Only people who have read the article’s words, perhaps. But at least those…. (Assuming that anyone has read an article called ‘Florence Cathedral’. (And with a capital C))—Ian Spackman 13:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It is all explained in the article under the header "Façade". JoJan 13:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Dome's Lantern

Construction of the lantern was begun a few months before his death in 1446. Then, for 25 years, little progress was possible, due to alterations by several architects. The lantern was finally completed by Brunelleschi's friend Michelozzo in 1461

I think there is a mistake... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.164.252.165 (talk) 03:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right. It was 15 years later. JoJan (talk) 16:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Competition

Ghiberti actually won the competition. Djamorpheus 22:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djamorpheus (talk • contribs)

Wrong. JoJan (talk) 18:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Uh no bra, check your sources:google --Djamorpheus 12:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djamorpheus (talk • contribs)

You are talking about the bronze doors of the Baptistery, when Ghiberto won the competition against Brunelleschi and become famous for the "Gates of Paradise". This article however relates to the Florence cathedral. Ghiberti lost the competition for the Dome against Brunelleschi, who would become famous for his dome on the cathedral. JoJan (talk) 15:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

nm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.250.123 (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

File:Duomo Firenze Apr 2008.jpg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Duomo Firenze Apr 2008.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 10:29, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction

In the sidebar, it says the cathedral is 90 metres (300 ft) tall. However, in the "Dome" section, it says:

"This brings the total height of the dome and lantern to 114.5 metres (375 ft)."

Is there some kind of mistake? - 24.150.238.199 (talk) 00:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Name in Italian

Does anyone know the correct Italian name for the Florence Cathedral? In the Italian wikipedia the Italian name is: Basilica Cattedrale Metropolitana di Santa Maria del Fiore.

In this English article the Italian name is: Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore (Italian) Jcardazzi (talk) 02:48, 16 April 2015 (UTC)jcardazzi

History section should contain present and recent development

Yes, unfortunatelly I can not edit it myself, I lack the knowledge, but the history section ends just too abruptly. What is it now? Museum? Living church with religious live inside? The nave seems so empty and dead, are there any masses yet? Was that closed as a church, made a museum? (When?) There are no chairs pictured, just the floor. Is mass still conducted in some small section of the church or are the chairs being moved in and out? Are there any sources for any of that? Reo ⁺ 11:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

WAY too many images

This article is loaded with images. Can we decide which ones to include and which ones aren't the most valuable? Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 22:36, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism Attempt

This article was vandalized by 43.241.146.147 on Feb 28, 2018. Request to Semi-Protect the Page. Crazycoolguy11111 19:08,28 February 2018 (UTC)

File:Dome of Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence).jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Dome of Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 6, 2020. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2020-03-06. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:29, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Florence Cathedral, formally the Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore, is a basilica in Florence, Italy. It was begun in 1296 in the Gothic style to a design of Arnolfo di Cambio, and was structurally completed by 1436, with the dome designed by Filippo Brunelleschi. The exterior of the cathedral is faced with polychrome marble panels in various shades of green and pink, bordered by white, and has an elaborate 19th-century Gothic Revival facade by Emilio De Fabris.

This picture shows the curved interior of the dome; the surface was originally whitewashed, but Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany, decided to have it painted with a representation of the Last Judgment. This enormous work, comprising 3,600 m² (39,000 sq ft) of painted surface, was started in 1568 by Giorgio Vasari and Federico Zuccari, and not completed until 1579. The upper portion, near the roof lantern, represents the Twenty-Four Elders of the Book of Revelation, and was finished by Vasari before his death in 1574. Zuccari and his collaborators finished the other portions – from top to bottom, choirs of angels; Christ, Mary and saints; virtues, gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Beatitudes; and capital sins and Hell. These frescoes are considered Zuccari's greatest work, but the quality of the artwork is uneven because of the input of different artists and their varying techniques.Photograph credit: Livioandronico2013

"quick facts external video"

despite the questionable use of 'quick facts' for external content, it does not look very elegant. Opened up it shows two grey blocks with the repeated info and empty space. I would prefer to move it to the external links. MenkinAlRire 15:59, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Dome of Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore (Florence).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Cupola del Brunelleschi

If we create a separate article on the dome? In the Italian section, a separate article is devoted to the dome Товболатов (talk) 18:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Statues

I'm finding the wording/structure of the statues paragraph confusing - Donatello and another sculpted statues for the front which were then found to be too small... the paragraph then leaps into Donatello producing the "first" statue a year or so later??? presumably the first statue of a different series, but this isn't explained Microxstephn (talk) 05:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)