Talk:Folke Bernadotte

Untitled

The article is as usual written by the sort of people Adorno described, for whom to use "I" is an impertinence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.79.50 (talk) 01:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Too much genealogy

There is far too much here on the count's descendants and his wife's family. Far too much to be relevant to his bio. I will be doing a major hatchet job on that section soon, unless anyone strongly objects and can show me how all that can be relevant here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree - hatchet away! Wikipeterproject (talk) 19:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I've transferred the genealogical text (without deleting it) to my sandbox User:Shakescene/Bernadotte, to see if I can format it as a table in the way I did with Lennart's genealogy. That doesn't mean the result wouldn't deserve some pruning, but it might be clearer what's what and who's who. By the way, I collapsed (and shrunk) the family table at Lennart Bernadotte#Ancestors, wives and children, combining it with the collapsed ahnentafel. It should make the stubby thinness of the other material more apparent. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good work! SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I finished the change for Folke, but it would be useful for others to check it over for errors, omissions, misunderstandings, inconsistencies and redundancies, some of which are inevitable. See Folke Bernadotte#Ancestors, wife and descendants. The treatment of offspring at the equivalent articles at Wikiswedia is very brief, although that shouldn't be the limiting factor here. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Very good work. SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:35, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

We have still not landed anywhere near normalcy in this regard. Now, his sons have a special hidden info box, where again, all kinds of irrelevant info has been added about grandchildren etc. Names are bolded all over as if these people's names are more important than Bernadotte's biographical accomplishments. His extramarital daughter is not in the box, so now she is visible as a child of his but the others aren't visible unless a box is specially opened. Very screwy if you ask me. SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done as well as I had time for right now. SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Bernadotte talking to Australian PoW's.

Pardon my ignorance, but in relation to the picture of Bernadotte talking to Australian PoW's... Australia had no army personnel in Europe during WWII - but rather RAAF personnel; the slouch hats hint at these men being in the army. Yeah, here are tildes, showing the post is my own 58.164.23.227 (talk) 23:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

You might be right, but can you just provide with a reliable sourse, just to be on a safe side.-- Jim Fitzgerald ^post 16:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Australian POWs were taken to Germany from North Africa and other places. There is even a book about it. Zero^talk 07:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Rescue in late states

Perhaps the Rescuing POW's in the late stages of WW II could be called a rescue ??? Also, the article doesn't make it clear its a late stages of the war thing.. He didn't do ANY rescues in 1942 or 1943... It doesn't say that his involvement in negotiating surrender was ended by the end of the war, the Allies military invasion of Berlin..

It all seems weasily at present, as if to exagerate his value.. "Look, its a man who can negotiate with the Nazi's ... " But only when the nazis were looking at how to die gracefully.

101.174.81.128 (talk) 04:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

From the Britannica Reference Suite 2010 article on Folke Bernadotte

"Bernadotte (af Wisborg), Folke, Greve (count)." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010:

"Appointed mediator in Palestine by the UN Security Council on May 20, 1948, Bernadotte obtained the grudging acceptance by the Arab states and Israel of a UN cease-fire order, effective June 11. He soon made enemies by his proposal that Arab refugees be allowed to return to their homes in what had become the State of Israel. After a number of threats against his life, he and André-Pierre Serot, a French air force colonel and UN observer, were murdered by members of the Jewish extremist Stern Gang. Bernadotte's efforts laid the foundation for both the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization, which monitors cease-fires and assists peacekeeping operations in the region, and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, which was created to provide relief services for Palestinians who lost their homes and means of livelihood following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948."

(Just in case anyone's interested:

"Stern Gang." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopaedia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2010:

also called Stern Group , or Lehi , formally Loḥamei Ḥerut Yisraʾel (Hebrew: “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”)

Zionist extremist organization in Palestine, founded in 1940 by Avraham Stern (1907–42) after a split in the right-wing underground movement, Irgun Zvai Leumi)

    ←   ZScarpia   16:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

maybe you could help me re the saving of my mother from aushwitz

Hi

My name is michael roth and my late step mother told me of the way she was saved during from exterminatiion in aushwitz before the end of the war

my understanbding is that Himmler did a deal with Count Folke Bernadotte where a thousnad jewsih lives were traded for 1000 swedish trucks

My step mother told me one day she was called to roll call and she was loaded into a convoy which was straffed either bty the american or british airforces , many of the prisoners were killed in ths raid but she arrived in denmark and was transported to sweden

Maybe you can direct me to some hsitorical records of this event

if you cn assist i would be most appreciative

my email address is michael.roth@bigpond.com

thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.157.112 (talk) 06:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Extended family charts

Biographical articles about notable persons are supposed to be about the person himself. They are not about his ancestors or his wife's ancestors. I deleted the unsourced material that was taking up an undue amount of space in this article. Even it was sourced, it would not be appropriate here.--Geewhiz (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Dear Gilabrand/Geewhiz: While you were writing this I was writing to you. I have seen to it that the excessive genealogy once in this article (and many others) has been edited and reduced considerably. So I fully agree with your edit summary comment. But isn't it customary to mention the children of a person with a WP biography? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Children and maybe a famous relative or two is fine. It was just this huge referenceless section that caught my eye. Please feel free to add whatever material you feel is relevant and not excessive. Best--Geewhiz (talk) 13:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

 Done. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

notes on two sources

"The Secret War on the Jews", by Aarons and Loftus is a standard sort of conspiracy tract. Its main "revelation" is that the British government has a secret department which keeps tabs on every Jew in the world. Almost every factual claim it makes about Bernadotte is wrong. Believe it at your peril. The book "Nazi millionaires" claims to have new evidence on Bernadotte but it is only that he had a personal relationship with the Walter Schellenberg. This is old news, read about it already at White Buses. Without Schellenberg's support, the White Buses would not have happened and thousands would have died. Later Schellenberg tried to negotiate a German surrender using Bernadotte as a reluctant messenger (this should be in the article, though with a proper source). Calling this "Nazi collaboration" on Bernadotte's part is somewhat disgusting. Neither book comes close to satisfying WP:RS. Zero^talk 11:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

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Avraham Steinberg

The last of Bernadotte's assassins, Avraham Steinberg (nicknamed 'Gingi') died this month aged 97.[1] Zero^talk 08:52, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

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There is an error in the Related Articles section. "Levi" should be "Lehi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 10:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I can't find it. Zero^talk 11:27, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I should have pointed that I see the "Levi" error in the mobile version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 19:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

The "Levi" error seems to originate from https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2904138. I have just fixed it there. I don't see the change reflected in this page, yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 20:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Now it is correct, "Lehi". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:A040:199:3133:2833:6642:2104:E4D5 (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Correction to Bernadotte travel and negotiation on release of French women, 1945

I do not have enough edits to qualify to make corrections for this article. Nevertheless, I wish to point one problem (completely unrelated to the Arab-Israeli issue) that needs correction.

Bernadotte’s write-up contains this paragraph:

“Bernadotte recounted the White Buses mission in his book The End. My Humanitarian Negotiations in Germany in 1945 and Their Political Consequences, published on June 15, 1945 in Swedish. In the book, Bernadotte recounts his negotiations with Himmler and others, and his experience at the Ravensbrück concentration camp.”

The first problem is the book title. The one given is correct-- but only for the original Swedish title translated into English. When it was published in English and other languages the title was changed and is cited further down as:

Bernadotte, Folke (1945). The Curtain Falls. Translated by Count Eric Lewenhaupt. New York: A. A. Knopf. LCCN 45008956. (Swedish title: Slutet.)

Here’s the problem: If you search for a copy of “The End: My Negotiations et al” you cannot find it except in the Library of Congress. You can’t buy it anywhere; no library can lend you a copy. It more or less doesn’t exist. That’s because the tile was changed to the second version, which are variations based on “The Curtain Falls.” The write-up needs to make clear that “The End” is “The Curtain Falls.” It does not currently do this in at least two places. This must be fixed and made clear. Also, the full title of the book needs to be given: It is “The Curtain Falls: The Last Days of the Third Reich.” You can find it many places, such as Amazon, https://www.amazon.com/Curtain-Falls-Last-Third-Reich-ebook/dp/B01BXA10OK/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=the+curtain+falls&qid=1596123477&s=books&sr=1-6

Here is the second problem: The Wikipedia write-up quoted above says “...and his experience at the Ravensbrück concentration camp.”

In fact, the book does NOT mention “his experience” at Ravensbruck; there is no indication anywhere in this book that he ever went near the place.

The first of only two references says this [p. 102]: “He [Himmler] also showed genuine interest in my proposal that the Swedish Red Cross be allowed to remove all French women interned at the Ravensbruck concentration camp. He said that he not only assented to this, but that he also wished us to remove the women of all nationalities, as the camp in question was shortly to be evacuated. I promised him that I would immediately give our detachment orders to this effect.” [In the end, 300 French women were exchanged for 453 German women held by the French. They were taken by white buses to Switzerland, where they were put oin a train to Paris met by Gen. de Gaulle himself, in person, who had hoped his niece -- a member of the French resistance and a prisoner at Ravensbruck -- was on the train. She was not. Eleven women died en route from the camp to Paris. The story of de Gaulle meeting the train is told by the famous New Yorker correspondent Janet Flanner, who was an eye-witness. The story is told on page 80 of "Left Bank: Art, Passion and the Rebirth of Paris, 1940-50" by Agnès Poirier, Henry Holt and Company 2018.]

The second reference on the very next page says: “I departed for Friedrichsruh immediately after breakfast. After a short visit to our headquarters, where I made arrangements for the removal of the women interned at Ravensbruck, I started for Denmark to be precise, for the small town of Padborg, just north of the Danish-German frontier. There I had the opportunity of inspecting the excellent arrangements made by the Danish Red Cross and the Danish authorities for the reception and quartering of prisoners before they were removed to other places in Denmark.”

It very clearly says he “made arrangements for” the transfer, and that he immediately left to go not to Ravensbruck but to Padborg.

There is no other reference to Ravensbruck. A further problem is the date of this conversation, which appears to be April 21 or April 22, 1945. In fact, the first evacuation of French women from Ravensbruck occurred on April 8, and is amply documented in many sources, including the well-documented fact they were greeted at Gare de Lyon by Gen. de Gaulle, on April 22 (and it took the women 16 days to get there). Other women -- the now famous “Lilacs,” Polish Catholics -- were soon evacuated, before August 22. Then, approximately 20,000 to 25,000 other women were sent on a death march across Germany (most did not survive). The Russians arrived at and occupied Ravensbruck on April 30, 1945, when only about 4,000 were left inside.

Bill Swanson1946 (talk) 18:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC) Bill Swanson

Thank you for your comments. Regarding the book, we permit non-English sources and there is no rule again citing the original Swedish edition. On the other hand, English sources of equal reliability are preferred, so the best outcome will be to name and cite the English edition. I believe I have electronic access and I'll work on this. (As an aside, you are incorrect that the original title was used only in Swedish. I located German, Finnish, Danish, Italian, French, Spanish and Esperanto editions using the original title in translation.) Zero^talk 03:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

UN mediator

The phrasing "unilateral Israeli Declaration of Independence" is inappropriate. The declaration was based on the UN resolution 181 (II) and was neither unilateral not multilateral. I suggest the word unilateral be dropped. Jony (talk) 21:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It was unilateral, DoI's typically are (unless you count the backdoor chicanery with Truman who recognized Israel more or less instantaneously). Just search, one can quickly find several sources containing that expression. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7312/gend15288 for example. Selfstudier (talk) 21:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

The issue as to who hired the Lehi assassins

Declassified British document suggests that the Israeli state itself hired the killers. British National Archives FO 371/75266 contains a 1949 letter about the then Belgium Consul-General, M. Jean Niewenhuys, detailing a "source, whom I consider to be reliable, [who] has been in secret communication with a certain Czech employee" in the Consulate. According to the source, the assassins were indeed Lehi, but they were working for Israel, not Lehi. "It appeared that the Czech Consul-General had been approached by Mr Shiloah* of the Israeli Foreign Office … about a week before the murder, to arrange Czech visas and air passage for seven Jews in a Czech air line for the late afternoon flight to Prague … Shiloah, acting on behalf of the Israeli Government, was the organiser of the murder. [*Reuven Shiloah, who would become the first director of the Mossad] Source: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20221019-did-israel-not-lehi-murder-un-mediator-folke-bernadotte-in-1948/ 185.236.184.175 (talk) 23:37, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting, but too conjectural for us and a better source is needed. Zero^talk 01:50, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Bernadotte

Should one say the final 'e', for example? 142.205.202.71 (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

No. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)--SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation in Introductory Paragraph

The opening paragraph alone contains confusing wording and outright misinformation. The Theresienstadt ghetto ONLY held Jewish prisoners. The only available sources cited didn’t support this statement about tens of thousands of non Jewish prisoners being transferred from there. In fact, one of the sources referred to thousands of non-Jews and Jews being taken from Ravensbruck and other camps to other countries.

If non-Jews were taken to Theresienstadt for their release, this should be made clear, as they had not prisoners there. I didn’t see evidence to support that, though.

I haven’t read the rest of the article, but the fact that the opening paragraph has completely incorrect information indicates that someone should more throughly vet this article.

It is probably for the best that it is locked, but those allowed to edit such articles need to be more vigilant, as it is unfortunately yet another Wikipedia piece that misrepresents the Holocaust in favor of those who downplay it, erasing the reality that an entire camp and ghetto was made exclusively for the Jews. Propaganda claimed “Hitler gave the Jews a city,” Theresienstadt. Elleoneiram (talk) 01:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, the phrasing also suggests that TENS OF THOUSANDS of non Jews were prisoner there, alongside *a few hundred* Jews. Which comes across as a more purposeful distortion of the Holocaust than I had thought. Elleoneiram (talk) 01:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Your comments would be more useful if you addressed the sources and/or provided sources for your positions. Everything we put into the article has to be based on published sources. Zero^talk 03:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)