Talk:Forensic entomology and society

I am glad that this article is being incorporated into the Forensic Entomology article. There have been a lot of social influences on the use of Forensic Entomology. The title may have been stated as "How society influenced Forensic Entomology." I also agree with the suggestions in your peer review. Karmijo37, April 15th, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karmijo37 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

this article although interesting is not suffiecient enough to stand on its own and should definitely be merged with forensic entomology. the merger would really make this article more reputable and be a nice addition to the forensic entomology article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dansha4521f (talk • contribs) 18:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe add some pics to the article in regards to the movies. It will add a little more eye candy to the article. Otherwise, it was cool to see where forensic entomology has shown up in the entertainment industry.Dbw279 (talk) 20:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Most of this page has now been merged to Forensic entomology because the information given in this article is largely background in nature and flows more smoothly with the already established article of Forensic entomology. Thank you for everyone's input regarding the need for a merger. The rest of this article will soon be merged into other articles. entogirl88 (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Tangerines, why are you undoing our formatting? This is for a school project. In a month you can do whatever you want. Please let us at least try for a good grade... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quatrevingtsix (talk • contribs)

• One of the important educational aspects of doing a project here is to learn how to colaborate with other editors and learn imposed editorial standards! We are not prepared to wait a month. If you want to lay down your own editorial rules, make your own wiki. Please make sure that Adrienne Brundage reads my suggestion here about using Wikia. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 13:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

RHaworth is right--a major portion of this assignment is taking the suggestions and edits of the online community (remember how I talked about this in class?) and making the appropriate changes. If you don't like the changes, you need to actually have a intelligent discussion about it, not just ask why they are making the changes. ABrundage, Texas A&M University (talk) 04:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if our initial comment seemed overly harsh or not thoughtful. It was definitely made out of in-the-moment frustration. It was not initially apparent to us, as we were working on the project, why the edits by Tangerine were made. This was most likely due to our inexperience with the wikipedia format. There was definitely a bit of a learning curve as we tried to figure out how everything works. entogirl88 (talk) 16:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As the author of the comment I too would like to apologize. It was a spur of the moment outburst catalyzed by sleep deprivation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quatrevingtsix (talk • contribs) 01:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Peer review of Forensic entomology and popular culture

Comments from MusicalConnoisseur (talk · contribs)

Wow, a rather informal PR this is, but here are my comments nonetheless:

• The lead sentence must be modified to conform with WP:LEAD, in other words, it must define the topic in a succinct, dictionary-like manner.
• The introduction, if possible, must serve as a summary of the rest of the article, about three paragraphs at most.
• Could the article be renamed? I don't think "popular culture" can refer to Pre-19th-century usage, maybe changing it to "History of Forensic entomology" (for instructions on renaming see WP:MOVE).
• Some words may have to be linked (e.g. Sung Tz’u)
• In the sentence "His discovery completely changed the way people viewed the decomposition of organisms and prompted further investigation into insect life cycles and into entomology in general," it would be best to specify in what ways. You don't have to go into detail, maybe just a word or two will suffice.
• "In 1235 A.D. a death investigator named Sung Tz’u published a book entitled The Washing Away of Wrongs, which described a case where..." should be "In 1235 A.D., a death investigator named Sung Tz’u published a book entitled The Washing Away of Wrongs, which described a case that used..."
• For clarity, a comma chould come after "after" in "Shortly after flies began flocking to a single sickle..."
• Under the "Pre-19th century" section, there is a double space between the paragraphs.
• "With his famous experiment using did a study on rotting meat that was either exposed to the air fully, partially, or not at all." should be "In his experiment, he used samples of rotting meat that were either exposed to the air fully, partially, or not at all."
• "Redi showed that the rotting meat fully and partially exposed to the air developed fly maggots, whereas the meat completely protected did not develop maggots." could be "Redi showed that the rotting meat that was fully and partially exposed to the air developed fly maggots, whereas the meat that was completely protected did not develop maggots," but this is only for the sake of optional clarity.
• There should be a hyphen between "twentieth" and "century" in "Early twentieth century popular scientific literature began to pique..."
• The ancient years (mind, not the recent ones) should be linked.
• "His collection of writings Souvenirs Entomologique..." could be "His collection of writings entitled Souvenirs Entomologique..."
• Since Mégnin has already been mentioned, how about "The real impetus behind the modern cultural fascination with solving crime using entomological evidence can be traced back to the works Faune de Tombeaux (Fauna of the Tomb, 1887) and Les Faunes des Cadavres (Fauna of the Cadaver, 1894) also written by Mégnin." instead?
• "It was after the publication of Mégnin’s work that the studies of forensic science and forensic entomology became an established part of Western popular culture and inspired other scientists to continue and expand upon his research." could be rephrased, like "It was after the publication of Mégnin’s work that the studies of forensic science and entomology became an established part of Western popular culture, which in turn inspired other scientists to continue and expand upon his research."
• Curly quotes aren't generally accepted per WP:MOS. Straight quotes or italicized words are best for those poem titles.
• "Because of the enormous popularity of the film The Silence of the Lambs, these scenes that reference to the overlap between entomology and forensic science are what most people associate with the work of forensic entomologists." could be "Because of the enormous popularity of the film The Silence of the Lambs, these scenes referencing the overlap between entomology and forensic science are what most people associate with the work of forensic entomologists."
• "In the 1991 movie My Girl, protagonist Thomas Jay suffers a tragic death due to anaphylaxis after being stung by bees, to which he was deathly allergic." The use of "deathly" is not valid here, because deathly means "evocative of death," rather than fatal. You could use "mortally," if you like.
• "Often times" is one word. ("Often times with such cases death due to anaphylaxis...")
• A participle verb would be helpful here; "Despite its rich history, forensic entomology for years remained a branch of forensics lurking the shadows." could be "Despite its rich history, forensic entomology has for years remained a branch of forensics lurking the shadows."
• "into the limelight it deserved..." If I'm seeing correctly, that's pretty much POV right there. (See WP:NPOV)
• As this is about forensic science, why is the "twist of fate" needed in "The Ken and Barbie murders"? Similar instances are in that paragraph; it's best to stick to the topic, folks.
• The comma shouldn't be here in "entomologist, Dr. Neal Haskell..."
• A comma should be after the word "dumped" in "the body of Danielle Van Dam was dumped which proved to be..."
• Pivotal decision time, guys: If you would like to keep this as a school project, keep this sentence "The Bernardo and Westerfield cases are just two examples out of many that involved the use of forensic entomology." simply because we are all told to state our main ideas as early as possible (or, at least, I was). If you would like to develop this into a full-fledged Wikipedia article, though, remove it, because the heading is your main idea already.
• "...investigators a more conclusive post mortem interval..." should have a comma after "investigators."
• "movies and TV shows forensic interest..." should have a comma after "shows."
• An extension on the pivotal decision mentioned earlier: "A more scientifically aware society makes deliberate well-informed choices. With the sciences being pushed in the curriculum and scouting activities involving entomology an expanding interest in forensic entomology will lead to more research." should be removed if you would it to remain a Wikipedia article.
• The fourth paragraph under "The CSI effect" is pretty POV. Again, it is entirely suitable for a report, but for an article, it needs to be neutralized a bit.
• I think the entire title "House, M.D." should be italicized, rather than just "House."
• "Forensic entomologists like Gail Anderson, of Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada, can rely on these formulas to provide certainty in their predictions. It is possible for them to estimate time of death to the exact day even if the person has been dead for a matter of weeks." Aha! This type of stuff, which defines the importance of forensic science, is what's needed in the intro.
• "Additionally the TV prejudices could leave some jurors wanting a dramatic experience and delaying progress." could be "Additionally the TV prejudices could leave some jurors wanting a dramatic experience, which can delay progress."
• "Even before the trial the CSI effect can train..." another comma after "trial."
• "Conversely victims can intentionally leave crucial traces behind..." yet another comma after "conversely."
• A last blow: "In one case a victim knowing she was going to be transported allowed insects to bite her in hopes of being found and traced back to her area." could be "In one case, a victim who knew she was going to be transported, allowed insects to bite her in hopes of being found and traced back to her area."

I notice that commas are pretty sparse here. That's all just style; its normal, but a few are needed to clarify meaning.

But, gee, I know I'm grilling you guys, but I just couldn't help myself. And good luck with your project; it's a real eye-catching topic.

By the way, what ultra-cool teacher encouraged you to write a Wikipedia article instead of some lame, hand-written essay? =) --~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 04:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up on Peer Review by MusicalConnoisseur (talk · contribs)

A few more things added on top...

• A wonderful lead paragraph, now, great. Now, though, the first term, "Forensic entomology," should be → "Forensic entomolgy," in keeping with Wikipedia protocol on lead sentences.
• "Information that can be gleaned from these arthropods includes circumstances surrounding a death as well as post-mortem intervals." is a tad awkward. Maybe "Data collected from forensic arthopological studies is often the source of crucial information that can help investigators solve the crime, including time of death, location of possible abduction, etc."
• Hate to nitpick, but the first paragraph is still a little POV, maybe with a hint of a little peacock.
• Tiny typo on the word "beginnging."
• "Shortly after, flies began flocking to a single sickle because of trace blood remnants that were still on the weapon from the murder." could be "Shortly after, flies began flocking to a single sickle, drawn by the traces of blood that were still on the weapon from the murder."
• The first paragraph under "Popular scientific and fictional literature in the 19th and early 20th centuries" is still a little too POV for me. Maybe you can cut down on words like "accessible writing style," "meticulous," etc.
• This is optional, but maybe a "The" before "Use of forensic science, including forensic entomology, became a popular part of fiction..."
• Um, my bad - poems shouldn't be italicized, I realized. Just straight quotes will do. But the films (e.g., Silence of the Lambs) must be italicized throughout.
• "Poe is also recognized as the inventor of the modern detective story," also "Poe’s character Dupin was the inspiration for countless other analytical crime-solvers, including Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s detective Sherlock Holmes." Under this topic, I don't see these sentences' relevance, unless you can somehow tie it to the main topic. But that has already been done in the forgoing statements, I see.
• "Because of the enormous popularity of the film The Silence of the Lambs, these scenes referencing the overlap between entomology and forensic science are what most people associate with the work of forensic entomologists." could be "Because of the enormous popularity of the film The Silence of the Lambs, most people associate these scenes referencing the overlap between entomology and forensic science with the work of forensic entomologists."
• "forensic entomology" pops up two three times in the first sentence under "Famous cases." ("It" will suffice.)
• Curly quotes can be used, but it is discouraged. It's just another WP thing - see "Straight or curly?" under WP:PUNC.

A really good improvement overall, though a few touch-ups might be needed to eliminate possible POV. Otherwise, grammar, style, etc. is A+.

Good luck on that grade; hope you guys pass with flying colors! --~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 04:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You talk about how the new television shows have altered juries. Is there evidence of this? And how are they affected? (Miss information on shows? Possible examples may be how long it takes to 'solve' the murder, the ease of the study of the crime, or how they know the scene before the shoot and how actual detectives do not, and more.) Also, pictures of the television shows or movies and other topics may help the reader to understand and break up the text some.Crosenbalm (talk) 16:14, 9 April 2008 (UTC) I noticed as well did others that this topic is closely related to the Forensic Entomology original page. I think maybe changing the title or at least changing the intro to fit the main direction yall are trying to go. The intro is key to the reader and should be very distinct from other articles. Just a suggestion. Jbratz (talk) 22:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The introduction could be a little more clear- the introduction should essentially introduce the reader to the use of forensic entomology in society. Perhaps including a sentence about PMI estimation would be useful in outlining the article. Csb14 (talk) 15:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel as though this topic should just fall under the broad spectrum of the Entomology article. i like the relative material and its information is interesting. i don't think it should stand alone, merging should be considered. --heartbreaker5785 (talk)

The article was very interesting. It is cool to see how much forensic entomology shows up in popular culture. I think it would be a good idea to merge the article to forensic entomology. How forensic entomology is used in society helps to elaborate on the subject of forensic entomology as a whole. In the section about movies, My Girl is not a good example of how forensic entomology is used in film. I noticed you mentioned how the film could be related, but I do not feel that it should be included in an article that is trying to demonstrate the practice of forensic entomology in society since the movie does not show or hint at it being used at all. This is of course just my opinion. Your article also needs a definitive closing paragraph to sum everything up. It really was a good read! garza_j_e (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I really enjoyed this article. I think you have made some great changes and are lucky to have been 'grilled' by a fellow wikipedian. It looks like you have taken some of his suggestions and worked them into your article. I do think that the article does need to be wrapped up in one way or another. It is left open and reads like another section should follow. Other wise I think you have chosen something unique and eye catching, good job! AMFaris (talk) 17:26, 13 April 2008

Erm, correction, AMFaris,..."her." I was "her," recently changed username. --^LaPianísta! 03:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)