Talk:Forever and a Day (Kelly Rowland song)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Forever and a Day (Kelly Rowland song) → Forever and a Day (song) – That is the ONLY available song title DISREGARD THE REDIRECT and THE OTHER SONGS of the same title titled "Forever and a Day ". j3j3j3...pfH0wHz 11:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

If this goes through, the article will need a hatnote directing readers to Forever and a Day. Powers ^T 19:18, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

There should be a hatnote anyway in view of the existing redirect [1], so I've added it. If this move doesn't go through, then this edit should be reverted and the redir to the DAB restored. Andrewa (talk) 03:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support at least until articles are created for the other songs (they might not be notable enough though). Rennell435 (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Many other songs by this name, see the DAB at Forever and a Day for an incomplete list. No evidence offered that this is the primary meaning in the context of music, and it's unlikely IMO. The current name does the best job of getting people to the article they want. Andrewa (talk) 07:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support. All other songs listed at the Forever and a Day dab are redlinks. We don't add extra disambiguation as a result of articles that might be created at some time in the future. When (or if) one of the redlinks is created, then we should move this article, but not before then. Jenks24 (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Completely and quite significantly wrong. There are no redlinks at all. The other four songs currently listed at the DAB at Forever and a Day are all linked to existing articles, three of them about the albums on which they appear, and the fourth to the band that recorded it, in compliance to MOS:DAB#Individual entries. The DAB is extremely useful in directing people looking for these songs to the article they want. Andrewa (talk) 03:18, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
• confused, there are a number of other songs (and articles) located at Forever and a Day, disambiguation is required. Though the hatnote is incorrect. If the only song with an article is this one then it should be located at Forever and a Day (song). — Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 23:18, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: No, this should happen if and only if this song is the primary topic corresponding to the title Forever and a Day when we're speaking about songs. If there is no such primary topic, then Forever and a Day (song) should point to the DAB, so those looking for the others can easily find the relevant articles. The onus of proof is on those who assert it's the primary topic. No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Support, on the basis that this is the primary topic when judging which of the articles about other songs called "Forever and a Day" are most notable (considering that no other articles are more primary than this one). Basically inline with what Andrewa said... — Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 22:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
      • At the risk of arguing from silence, does that mean that as far as you know there's no evidence that this is the primary topic, other than the fact that these other songs don't have Wikipedia articles? Andrewa (talk) 23:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
        • According to the page viewing statistics for June 2011, Forever and a Day (Kelly Rowland song) (this article) was viewed 4273 times, in comparison to Forever and a Day which was viewed 2239 times and Forever and a Day (song) which was viewed 31 times. If the only song which has an article is this one then taking into account the page view statistics, it should exist at Forever and a Day (song) with a hat note stating that for other songs of the same name see Forever and a Day. — Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 23:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
          • A classic case of why we can't rely on raw statistics, but need to look for what they mean. These statistics certainly show that more people are currently looking for the Kelly Rowland 2010 single that charted at #49 than for the Brothers in Rhythm 1994 single by the same name that charted at #51. That's exactly as you would expect; It doesn't justify regarding the more recent as the primary topic. The evidence is that they're about equal. And there are countless other songs by this name, probably most of them and possibly all of them less famous again, but the point is just that neither of these two is the primary topic. There doesn't seem to be one. Andrewa (talk) 05:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • Upon what basis are you not convinced? (i'm happy to change my mind if I've misunderstood...) — Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 23:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
          • We seem to be talking at cross purposes. See below. Andrewa (talk) 01:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
• What @Andrewa (talk) means that if the Kelly Rowland song is NOT the primary topic, this must be oppose. But if this is a primary topic, this must be move. Just clarifying. j3j3j3...pfH0wHz 06:58, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
  • This seems to me a rather confusing way of saying whatever it says, rather than a clarification. I'm not sure whether it's an accurate paraphrase, or even whether that's what it's supposed to be. So I'd strongly suggest you read my comments rather than this if you're interested in what my views are, and if they aren't clear ask me to clarify them. Andrewa (talk) 12:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

The problem is, there are an incredible number of songs by this title. This particular song charted in the low forties at best, and hasn't charted at all outside of Europe. So it's certainly notable, but so probably are some of the others, just not quite so recent.

It's possible that it's the primary topic, but there's no evidence for that so far, in fact no comparisons with other songs have been made at all except for the repeated observation that none of the others yet has an article. This is not disputed. Andrewa (talk) 01:14, 4 July 2011 (UT

(It's also been claimed that the DAB contained only redlinks so far as the other songs listed there are concerned. This is easily checked and completely untrue. Andrewa (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC))

Here are just a few of the others worth thinking about, in addition to the four already listed at Forever and a Day:

• Brothers In Rhythm CD single, 1994, charted at #51 in the UK.
• Lionel Richie track on Just Go (album).
• Jewel (singer) track.
• Jem (singer) track.
• Single Bullet Theory (new wave band) track.

(I may add details to these as I find them). Andrewa (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Some details now added to the list at the DAB. See below. Andrewa (talk) 14:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, it's also of course the name of the title tracks on both the Kruger Brothers 2010 album, and the 2006 album Forever and a Day (album) by Idols winner Karin Kortje. Both of these would have some prominence in the minds of some English speakers. The albums but not the specific tracks are already listed at the DAB.

So the question is, are all of these other meanings overshadowed by this recent mid-charting song? I'm skeptical. And if not, there's no primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 01:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Added these to the DAB at Forever and a Day. Please note, there are still no redlinks. Andrewa (talk) 03:02, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Now also ordered the 12 songs now listed at Forever and a Day by date of release. Eight of them link to existing articles on the albums on which they appear (title tracks of two of these), three to the bands (one of which seems to be the highest charting of the twelve), and one to an article on the song (this one).

And the earliest yet listed is 1992. I strongly suspect it's still an incomplete list. Andrewa (talk) 14:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Disambig page Forever and a Day lists 10 songs and 2 albums named Forever and a Day. If Forever and a Day (Kelly Rowland song) is the dominant search entry now, it will not be for long: like all pop music ephemera its fame will fade and become old fading memory. I have seen hundreds of popular sensations come and go. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:52, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - There are plenty of other notable songs by this title; the existence of even one other notable song by this title should be sufficient to include the extra disambiguation. Neelix (talk) 16:51, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

David Guetta

There's no mention of David Guetta in the album booklet for the UK edition of Here I Am, for the song in question. All production credits goes to Jonas Jeberg.--z33k (talk) 23:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

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