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Talk:Formula One drivers from the United Kingdom

Latest comment: 3 years ago by Calidum in topic Requested move 6 February 2021
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Alexander Albon

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Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

According to the "Alexander Albon" article, he is a Formula One driver and was born in the UK, so is a "Formula One drivers from the United Kingdom". Should he be included in this article, or is the article incorrectly named? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:57, 22 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

@DeFacto: incorrectly named. Whilst the articles in this series are called "Formula One drivers from country" the content is actually "Formula One drivers representing country". Albon is therefore covered in Formula One drivers from Thailand. See also Jochen Rindt who is from Germany but covered in the Austrian article and Nico Rosberg who is from Monaco but is in the German article and drivers such as Robert Doornbos who has part of their career in Formula One drivers from Monaco and another part in Formula One drivers from the Netherlands courtesy of having represented both countries.
SSSB (talk) 08:35, 23 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
SSSB, thanks for that interpretation, it is what I imagined too. I guess it needs fixing, as does some of the article wording, as it is currently quite misleading. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:54, 23 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 6 February 2021

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Latest comment: 3 years ago41 comments16 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 04:44, 22 February 2021 (UTC)Reply


– WP:PRECISE.

The current titles do not match the scope. Consider one example of many, Alex Albon, he was born and raised in London, to all intents and purposes he is "from the United Kingdom". Yet he represented Thailand, and is therefore detailed in Formula One drivers from Thailand, despite not being from Thailand at all. Why don't we rename to "Nationlity Formula One drivers" (Swiss Formula One drivers, Austrian Formula One drivers etc.)? The problem is that this isn't completely accurate (although I would also support such a move). Drivers haven't always represented a nationality of thiers, for example Jochen Rindt competed as an Austrian, but never had Austrian cictizenship, and therefore isn't Austrian.
SSSB (talk) 15:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. BD2412 T 06:28, 13 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Pinging @DeFacto: who has above expressed confusion with the current name.
SSSB (talk) 16:12, 6 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support moves per nom, this would remove the anomalies. It is WP:COP compliant, and removes the current situation where people are necessarily miscategorised in contravention of WP:CATVER. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support moves per above Benica11 (talk) 18:31, 6 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support per nominator.
    5225C (talk • contributions) 23:22, 6 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose the first suggestion. Even in the present, drivers don't "represent" their country in the way that someone competing in a national soccer/rugby team does. This is not language I've ever seen describing a Formula One driver in a reliable source so I don't see why we should use it here. That said, I support the alternative suggestion (eg "Australian Formula One drivers" etc) since it's simpler and more accurate since "Formula One drivers from ---" sounds like it refers to country of birth regardless of actual nationality or what country their licence is from. A7V2 (talk) 06:12, 7 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment - I think the proposed wording is a better explanation of the information contained within the articles than the current one, but I will agree with A7V2 that the proposed wording is not one regularly used by sources, who would usually say something to the effect of "Alex Albon races under the Thai flag" or "Jochen Rindt raced under the Austrian flag". That being said "Formula One Drivers who raced under the flag of the United Kingdom" is not a very WP:CONCISE title so I would support either "Formula One drivers who represented (nation)" or "(Nationality) Formula One drivers". HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose: strictly speaking, as A7V2 has pointed out Formula One drivers do not actually represent the country. The proposal is NOT precise at all. F1 drivers happen to hold a licence from a specific country and don't have to be born there or even be a national, so perhaps a better title might be Formula One Drivers racing with a (nation) licence or a bit shorter, Formula One Drivers with a (nation) licence or even something else close if we want better precision. When the driver happen to come from the country whose licence they hold, then the current title is fine but that is just not the case for everyone. ww2censor (talk) 12:30, 7 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
    It is precise because drivers are still representatives of their country. They may not represent their country in the same that national footballers do, or olympic athletes. But they still act as a representative of the country when they compete under that nations license.
    However, I would support both of your proposals.
    SSSB (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
@SSSB: thanks but it's still not the same sort of representation as playing for the national football, cricket or other team, or participating in the Olympics. That's really the point of naming the articles to reflect the reality of their licence. ww2censor (talk) 15:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
You are wrong. And you are wrong becauce you apply your own overly strict definition of "representing one's country". The Olympic or national ball-sport team way is not the only way to officially represent your country. The governing body of this sport quite patently considers their competitors as official representatives of their countries. The whole situation involving Nikita Mazepin not being allowed to represent Russia is a direct proof of that. The FIA's Formula One World Championship is not in any way less an official World Championship than for instance the IAAF's World Championship in Athletics. You are also wrong with regards to the requirements. It's not just up to having a licence. Per the FIA's international sporting code drivers have to use a passport nationality they possess. Thus they quite patently do have to be a national of the country they represent.Tvx1 00:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
@SSSB and Tvx1: I very much disagree that they are "representing" their country. Of course their nationality is important, but it's the same as when players play in a major sports league in another country. They will often attract supporters from their country (whether they are a citizen or not) but are not representing their country (eg List of foreign Premier League players, List of foreign NBA players). And if we are to make this change, what then will we do with Mazepin who will NOT be "representing" Russia for at least two years, if he is still competing by then (see [1])? Will we be forced into the legal fiction that he is not a Russian driver? Tvx1, please provide a reliable source which uses such language (that drivers represent a nationality). I have never seen it, so I would argue your are entering the realm of original research. A7V2 (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
You are the one who's venturing into original research through creating your own definition of what officialy representing your country means. By every definition applied by official governing bodies authorized to do so they officially represent their countries. That is a simple fact. It's no up to us to create a definition. The ruling by the Court of Arbitration of Sport literally pointed out with regards to the sanctions that the FIA's official world championships are not different in any way to other official world championships and these sanctions apply in exactly the same way to them.Tvx1 00:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Tvx1: I am not creating, nor proposing, a definition for anything. There is no need to define the term here and we should avoid doing so for the purposes of these articles. The ruling makes no mention of athletes representing their country, instead opting for the language "Athletes from Russia". None of this is really relevant however since even if it is official, the terminology is very rarely used (see my reply below), and the recent legalese doesn't necessarily apply to racing in, for example, the 1950s which is still covered by these articles. A7V2 (talk) 03:27, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
(edit conflict) It's not the same at all. When Lionel Messi plays for Barcelona he does not represent Argentina because he does not play as an Argentine. However, Hamilton races as a Brit. If Hamilton wins we get treated to the British flag flying over his head and the national anthem. When he wins, it is counted as a win for the UK. When Messi scores, or wins, for his non national team, he doesn't get any recognition of his nationality at all (unless the commentary gives some random stat). Your comparison to justify your opposition here falls at every hurdle. Mazepin will be treated as a neutral athlete who does not represent any nation. As for your sources: [2], [3] are both sources I found in about 2 minutes that explicitly use the word represented, I found many others that imply representation.
SSSB (talk) 00:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
@SSSB: By this logic, Fangio and Moss were representing (West) Germany when racing for Mercedes since in the 1950s cars were coloured based on the nationality of the entrant. According to the article Tvx1 gives above, Mazepin (and any Russian) will be permitted to be "neutral athlete from Russia" or "Russia. Neutral athlete", which certainly sounds like he is still Russian. What I meant when I said that I have never seen this usage I was referring to just general usage in just about any article written about a driver. Of course one can find bottom of the barrel sources using a particular term but almost invariably drivers are simply referred to as "Russian" etc, including in cases like Albon ("Thai racer") or Rindt (described in Alan Henry's "Racers 1969-2000" as simply "the Austrian"). A7V2 (talk) 03:27, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
Sources aren’t “bottem barrel” just because they don’t support your POV. And your logic is wrong again. These colors for the cars were primarily aesthetic and decorative and these teams were not official national teams officially organized and entered by the official national governing bodies.Tvx1 06:12, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
You literally haven't refuted anything I have actually said. The sources given are bottom of the barrel (as the expression goes) since they are not sources one often sees on Wikipedia or elsewhere (and I doubt many ever actually read, I certainly don't), not appearing even once amongst the more than 200 citations on the 2020 and 2019 season articles, with the first [4] being a probably unreliable fan-site (see [5]) and the second is literally a clickbait quiz [6]. As to your other point, I'm sure you realise I'm not actually making that claim. Finally, simply saying that I'm wrong over and over won't make it so, and couldn't be less convincing (but then perhaps your purpose is not actually to convince me?). A7V2 (talk) 06:33, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
I reguraly see planet f1 cited, so "bottom of the barrell" doesn't hold, it being a quiz on that website doesn't make any difference, it is a reliable source.
Your logic from your "by this logic ..." comment isn't logical at all. Fangio and Moss driving for a team that is German doesn't mean they individually represent Germany. That's not how representation works.
SSSB (talk) 10:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
I will make a few points and then I think that's it as I think we are seriously missing the forest for the trees here. Firstly, of course they weren't representing Germany. That's my point. And yet they played the German national anthem (but in those days not those of the drivers) and drove cars in mandated national colours. This is no more or less aesthetic than Lewis Hamilton being regarded as British today (not that being British means one is representing Britain). According to dictionary definition, to represent generally implies some kind of selection by the entity being represented (eg [7]) which is missing in the case of Formula 1 drivers. Whether or not current sporting bodies use a definition which says a driver always represents their nation I don't know. Tvx1 says they do, but the two links provided do not confirm or deny this. Ultimately I don't think it matters as this is merely a technicality which may not apply to the past anyway. I make no further comment on your (SSSB) sources but this: I have been reading motor racing journalism and books for the vast majority of my life, and I can't recall a single article (that I read myself) using the terminology "represent". Does that mean no-one says it? No. But it is very rare, and as I've already said, even for drivers who don't even hold the nationality they are usually referred to simply as if they were from that nation. So I don't see why we should move these articles to such cumbersome names when other sources don't burden themselves in such a way. A7V2 (talk) 12:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
None of the definitions of the verb "to represent" in your link actually mention selection in any way. So you're not even supporting your own claims with your sources. The move is warranted because the current titles simply do adequately cover what these articles actually deal with. Your objections however are misguided by a misunderstanding and overly strict opinion of what representing in these titles is intended to mean.Tvx1 18:47, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
Are you sure about that? Of the definitions which apply to people, number 3 is "to stand or act in the place of, as a substitute, proxy, or agent does" - this doesn't really apply since surely you aren't arguing drivers are acting in place of their country but even so, with the example given of someone representing a company this would usually be understood to be someone chosen by that company. Definition 4: "to speak and act for by delegated authority" - key word being delegated. Definition 5 "to act for or in behalf of (a constituency, state, etc.) by deputed right in exercising a voice in legislation or government" - not relevant in this case but certainly implies being chosen (deputed). The others don't apply at all except perhaps number 13 "to serve as an example or specimen of; exemplify" but this is not something usually used to describe a person, but certainly could be by some which may be why some adopt this language in this case. I think more likely the language is occasionally used as it evokes the same kind of national representation one sees in the Olympics or national sports teams where athletes are indeed chosen to represent their country. A7V2 (talk) 22:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
Firstly the use of the word "delegated" in definition 4 does not prove your point. The thing that is delegated is the authority, not the representative. In other words, if we use Verstappen as an example (because of his dual nationality), definition 4 suggest that Verstappen chose to represent the Netherlands, it does not support the fact that the Netherlands would need to chose Verstappen for him to be their represntative.
Doing my own research into the definitions of "represent" ([8]). We have "be present in something to a particular degree". By Hamilton competing in F1 the UK is present to a particular degree, therefore he represents the UK. This is the meaning the word "represent" is supposed to convey in these proposed titles. I reject the idea that F1 drivers do not represent their nations in some capacity.
SSSB (talk) 09:38, 10 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • I don't understand that since using the word "of" would retain the exact problem we're trying to solve. It's not different to using from. The proposal with "for" would work but that's not a sort of description I have seen in general usage. Moreover, we're discussing the titles of articles, not names of categories here.Tvx1 18:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
There is going to be confusion around Mazepin anyway. The FIA (and Formula One by extension) don't consider him Russian so neither can we. That is not impacted by article title.
SSSB (talk) 09:23, 17 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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