Talk:Foulksrath Castle

Edit request on 7 February 2013

Please replace the first two paragraphs with these four paragraphs:

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Foulksrath Castle (Irish: Caislean Ratha) is a 16th century Anglo-Norman tower house located in Jenkinstown in County Kilkenny, Ireland.

It was built by the Purcell clan from Normandy. After over three centuries as owners, the family was allowed to living as peasants in the castle barn after it was confiscated by Oliver Cromwell and given to his officers after the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. An officer named Bradshaw became the new owner.

The castle has had a number of owners since including Moses Henshaw and Mr. Ryan.

The castle was purchased by An Óige in 1946 with community support. The purchase and cost of conversion into a youth hostel were met by a public appeal.

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Please mark the next paragraph as .

Regards, Ariconte (talk) 05:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Pursuant to Ariconte's edit request

Please replace the last paragraph about the hauntings with the following:

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Several stories are in circulation as to the haunted nature of the castle:

• the first legend concerns a female ghost said to look out from the castle windows; she is purported to be the daughter of a former owner of the castle, a certain Dean Swift, who, unhappy with his daughter's choice of lover, had her locked away in a tower, where she either starved to death, or was put to death by her father, depending on the version;
• the second ghost apparently makes a yearly apparition on the 29th November, and is supposedly a guard who fell asleep on duty and was thrown to his death from the ramparts of the castle in punishment. His footsteps can be heard as he wanders the castle to make amends for his carelessness;
• the third legend concerns another female ghost, this time a woman who wanders the castle, spreading the scent of wild flowers, or lilacs, wherever she goes.

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Cheers! CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 13:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Copyright issue

Please note that the material copied verbatim from "Foulksrath Castle & Families connected with it" by J S Gibb which was originally added with this edt (and subsequently removed several times), must not be re-added. It is not in the public domain. It is from The Old Kilkenny Review (1946) [1]. The author was still alive until at least 1956 [2], so even if he died that year, his work would not come out of copyright until 2026. - Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to add that the The Old Kilkenny Review was published by the Kilkenny Archaeological Society, and seems to be a reliable source for information about the history of the castle, but of course, that information needs to be written in your own words when being added to the article. Voceditenore (talk) 16:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Re the poem which was added in its entirety ("The Well of Kathleen Ryder"), it is out of copyright, although it's wildly inappropriate to reprint it in its entirety in a WP article. However, the introductory paragraph ending with It became known as “The Well of Kathleen Ryder”, and is immortalized in the following poem. was copy pasted verbatim from this website and is also a copyright violation. Voceditenore (talk) 17:20, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Hey, don't worry too much, people who actually understand WP policy like relevance, COPYVIO, RS, UNDUE, etc. consistently removed the material and, as you can see above, are trying to get a more encyclopaedic-toned version in place. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 17:23, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not worried about you and Ariconte :) I was basically addressing the editor(s) who added it and re-added it. This page isn't going to stay protected forever. Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

For sure, it was so obviously a copyvio dump of text, but I didn't even get that far, just walls of non-formatted, unreferenced text set the alarm bells ringing. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 18:55, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Virtually all text dumps are undesirable from an editorial point of view but not all of them are copyvio. Since the person who added it wrote that "the history comes from histories/pamphlets written over a hundred years ago which I have looked for on the internet but can't find any copyright information about it. As far as I know any copyright on these publications will have expired by now anyway", it needs to be made clear here on the talk page that it hasn't expired, and why. It's standard practice when copyvio has been removed from an article. Voceditenore (talk) 19:24, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Downgrading protection to semi

Thanks Voceditenore for helpfully identifying that massive chunk as featuring several copyvios. I'm going to downgrade the protection to semi, as the IP editor was edit warring to insert a copyvio (even though he may not have realised it). If he wants to propose a rewrite on the talkpage, you guys and the editor who says he lives in the place can consider whether the article still needs protection at all. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

TOC and headings

Hi and thanks to all who have weighed in to sort out the mess, I have added a TOC and section headings as in my 5-minute search for references about the ghosts I found that this castle seems to be rather well-known, and I'm sure that the article can be expanded on, regarding its history, its role, its owners, the youth hostel period etc. If the owner wishes to add information, I'm sure other editors are willing to help them understand basic WP principles, how to format a reference, how to rewrite text so that it's not copyright violation and so on. Probably better to ask for advice on the talk page if you're not too sure. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 15:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

It should have entries in travel books published during the time it was a hostel; I learned about it from an Ireland Lonely Planet guide c. 2005 and was lucky enough to stay there once (the picture currently in the article is mine, as are I believe all the ones posted at Commons so far). I'll see if I have some time to dig up my book and see what can be cited from it. postdlf (talk) 18:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Outhouses?

Am I to understand correctly that there are no bathrooms except on the first floor? Also, please update the status of lavatory functions. Is there a separate latrine and is that a permanent part of the property and should there be a separate entry for said bathhouse/latrine?24.0.133.234 (talk) 16:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Destroyed Version of Page

I liked this better http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Foulksrath_Castle&oldid=536439191 . You really think someone is going to come back here and keep posting info. only to be accused of advertising and self-promotion?24.0.133.234 (talk) 01:16, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
The castle is mentioned throughout the poem. As I understand it the copyright of the poem has expired. I don't see why the poem cannot be included in this topic unless there is some kind of rule involving certain types of prose allowed on Wikipedia.24.0.133.234 (talk) 01:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

That version of the page cannot be used. As was pointed out above in detail [3]:

1. the entire text of the "Early History" section was a copyright violation. Information from it can used and summarized in the article but not the text itself.
2. the entire paragraph in the "The Well of Kathleen Ryder" section which introduces the poem was a copyright violation and would require complete rewriting. It would also require a more reliable source (e.g. [4]) for the assertions made in that paragraph.
3. as for the poem itself see Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources.

What part of all this do you still not get? Voceditenore (talk) 06:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

This is not say that there shouldn't be sections on the history of the castle and on the poem (there should be), but they need to be properly written in encyclopedic style and original prose and properly referenced. Voceditenore (talk) 06:44, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the poem was a copyvio. It was long, but it had a lot of details about the castle and the story of the haunting/history. I think that there are more reasons to keep the long poem than to edit it. But maybe not.24.0.133.234 (talk) 15:53, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

The poem itself is public domain and not copyvio. The introductory paragraph (written in unencyclopedic language, to boot) was pasted verbatim from here. Pasting in an 8000 character poem, is quite contrary to the guideline linked above (Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources) and with zero context, and zero references verifying that castle referred to in this poem is actually this castle, it is even more inappropriate. I've listed some sources below. I suggest you write a paragraph about the poem, in original prose and properly referenced, and propose it here on the talk page. Voceditenore (talk) 16:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Online sources

I'll list below sources which are available online in their entirety and will be useful for referencing/expanding the article:

• Healy, William (1893). History and Antiquities of Kilkenny (County and City). Kilkenny:Egan [fairly lengthy discussion of the poem and its background]

• Wright, William Ball (1887). "On Foulksrath Castle and Logmore, their Founders and Possessors" in The Journal of the Royal Historical and Archeological Association of Ireland

More sources for the castle's history can be found via this search.

Voceditenore (talk) 07:06, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Transferred from my talk page

Foulksrath Castle

Hello

I notice that you have recently edited the information for Foulksrath Castle.

I recently added and edited this information but had all the edits etc removed.

One of the reasons I changed it was inaccurate information. You have not included some of this inaccurate information in your recent changes.

For example, you mention that the Purecels were evicted by Cromwell's men to live in the barn after living in the castle for three centuries. Cromwell's campaign in Ireland was 1649-1652. This would then put the Purcells at Foulksrath around 1350. However, the De Frenes were in Foulksrath then. It was actually Fulke or his son Fulco de la Frene that gave the area it name.

Extract from Foulksrath Castle and the Families associated with it by By JOHN S. GIBB In 1295, Fulke de la Frene was seventy-third on the list of nobles summoned to a Parliament by John Wigan. He was slain by one of the Butlers of Carrick or by followers of Butler in one of the many conflicts which arose between the invaders. He left two sons, Fulco and Geoffrey, and in 1325, Fulco was one of a number who went bond for £I,000 to Bishop Ledrede for Roger, outlaw son of Alice Kyteler.

Additionally, you mention the story of Dean Swift's daughter. However, Dean Swift is not known to have had a daughter. Additionally, the Swift family did not own the castle when Dean Swift was living in Kilkenny.

your 3rd link shows two photos. The second of which claims to be the entrance to the Castle..which it is not. It is in fact the main entrance to Swifts Heath which is a large house nearby.

Thanks

Paul

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(----) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul hopkins777 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Paul, I'm transferring this to the article talk page as you don't seem to get that Wikipedia is a COLLABORATIVE effort and most of the stuff you mention above (you recently edited, you mention, your 3rd link etc.) does not concern me directly but the three or four editors (myself included) who have been attempting to make the article conform to Wikipedia's standards (notably to be encyclopaedic, and not partisan or partial). CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 12:47, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• To adress your last two paragraphs, this information about Dean Swift being the owner, and the father of the dead daughter-turned-ghost, comes from another website, http://www.britainirelandcastles.com/index.html, who you should contact if you have information to the contrary. It is this same site that publishes the photo that you dispute is the entrance to the castle, but this has nothing to do with Wikipedia, okay? CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 13:01, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• I've substantially re-written the history section based on two articles from the Kilkenny Review. In my view britainirelandcastles.com is a self-published, ad-filled, unreliable source and should not be used at all for this article. I've also amended the haunting section section slightly, using a different reference and removing the mention of Dean Swift, which is patently absurd. The Swift who bought the castle was a distant relative of his and bought it 1898. The source now used for that particular ghost does not mention Swift and merely refers to a "former owner".Voceditenore (talk) 18:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Totally agree, after Paul's comments above I went to check the website and found a disclaimer saying, basically, "we do not guarantee the accuracy of the information on this website", so not a reliable source at all, and when I saw that you had swapped the reference for another, whilst rewriting the text to conform, I thought "jolly good show!" CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 13:27, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

More about "The Well of Kathleen Ryder"

I have read in detail, both the description of its background in Healy, William (1893). History and Antiquities of Kilkenny (County and City) and the poem itself. I am quite convinced that while the poem refers to an episode in the life of the De Frene family, it does not refer to Foulksrath Castle, which is never mentioned by name in the poem. The description in the poem strongly suggests that it refers to the long-demolished (circa 1770) Ballyreddy Castle, which was also a seat of the De Frene family, in fact its most important one. Note that the poem describes the castle in the third verse:

Where the hills of Ballyreddy

Rise above the bending Nore, (River Nore)

Stood a stately feudal mansion

Famous in the days of yore,

Not one pile of broken ruin,

Not one tree of that domain,

Tells that there once stood the castle,

And the woods of De La Frene.

This is clearly a description of Ballyreddy Castle's location, and why would the poet (Paris Anderson) writing in the mid 1800s describe the castle as completely disappeared when Foulksrath Castle was not only still standing, but occupied at that time? He was from County Kilkenny and knew the area well. In my view, the mention of the poem may be appropriate in an article about the De Frene family, but definitely not in this one. Voceditenore (talk) 14:28, 15 February 2013 (UTC)