Talk:Four Letter Lie

Allmusic

Edit war brewing over the citation of Allmusic as a source for the genres. SilverOrion, you've stated that Allmusic is unreliable but made no case as to why Allmusic fails to meet WP:RS; all I've heard from you on my talk page is your personal opinions on their genre decisions. Why are we taking your word as more reliable than that of the largest music database in the world? Chubbles (talk) 13:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS states that "articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Allmusic has a good reputation for biographical informaiton, however it fails in regards to genre descriptions. This is not the first instance where the use of Allmusic has been disputed. I will compile a list if you dont believe me. Your last statement is redundant as popularity does not imply reliability. --SilverOrion (talk) 06:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with SilverOrion; Allmusic's genre labeling is questionable at best. I don't know how you can say that's an opinion. Many editors on Wikipedia have asserted this problem. Allmusic is clearly wrong in the labeling of 50% of the bands in its database, and should only be used when no other sources can be found, which is not the case here. — ^FatalError 07:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Clearly wrong...according to what standard? There is no such thing as "right" and "wrong" in genre designations. They are matters of opinion, not facts, and are not subject to being right or wrong. Allmusic has correctly ascertained that, according to the opinion of many observers, the word "screamo" is a useful term to describe the band's sound, and has so labeled them. There's nothing unreliable, or poorly fact-checked, about their usage. Chubbles (talk) 17:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Really? So I could call The Beatles hip hop and I wouldn't be wrong? There may not be a fine line between genres, but it is not based on opinion, and there are some labels which are clearly wrong. There's a reason we don't use databases like Windows Media and Amazon as sources; I can guarantee that, in a lot of cases, they are clearly wrong with the genre, as is Allmusic quite often. By your logic, if a newspaper called this band techno, we'd have to put that, because it's their opinion that the band plays techno. — ^FatalError 07:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The stylistic comparison is not nearly so absurd. This is a straw man argument, and it does nothing to address the fact that what you are proposing is entirely based upon your own original research about musical genres. Chubbles (talk) 14:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Genres, can in some instances, be influenced by individual opinion, however it does not mean that it is not susceptible to scrutiny. --SilverOrion (talk) 07:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have yet to hear an actual attempt to scrutinize the genres in current use on this page. Chubbles (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have yet to hear an actual explaination as to how genres are purely "matters of opinion, not facts". --SilverOrion (talk) 09:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

At no point has anyone attempted to explain what stylistic or cultural factors - the things which are the foundations upon which people make judgments about genres - are at play in this band's music and image. Perhaps with good reason; this sort of thing hews very closely to a line of original research, which is why I simply parrot the opinions of third-party sources instead of discussing actual musical style (which would be more useful but also more controversial and possibly against policy). But I have no wish to continue a high-school-debate-club level of discussion here. Shall we talk substance, or keep trying to score "OH!" points? Chubbles (talk) 13:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't actually explain why genres are "matters of opinion, not facts". Your "opinion" argument is flawed in the sense that it can be applied to just about any subject, which basically undermines the very notion of using sources--SilverOrion (talk) 07:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

My argument essentially boils down to a variation on the Fact-value distinction; genres are not facts, they are values, and are not subject to objective verification through sourcing. What we are, in fact, sourcing are generally held opinions about what music sounds like. Chubbles (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Allmusic, more often than not, does not use "generally held opinions" about a band's genre. I have seen many cases where several reliable sources have completely contradicted Allmusic's database. Allmusic's opinion is generally unsupported by the general public, which contradicts Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. I completely understand your argument, and I know where you're coming from, but just the fact that there have been so many debates like this on Wikipedia should be proof enough that Allmusic is an unreliable source for genres. — ^FatalError 00:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Remember that the general public often believes more than one thing at the same time, including things that are mutually contradictory. You have yet to provide a concrete example. Chubbles (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)