Talk:Frédéric Chopin/Archive 1

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Questioning neutrality of article

I'm wondering about the basis or neutrality of the following claim in the lead sentence of the article. Chopin ... is widely seen as the greatest of Polish composers and the very greatest of composers for the piano . Does anyone else feel it should be toned down from "the very greatest" to something more like "one of the greatest"? - (unsigned)

Who is it that you are thinking of that is a greater Polish composer or widely seen as a peer of Chopin in composing for the piano? - Nunh-huh 01:09, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. – Pladask 01:41, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think this falls under Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms. With that guideline in mind, I think it would be much better to give examples of why he is a great composer for the piano rather than to declare it. --Sketchee 22:57, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the original comment. Surely Beethoven was at least as great a composer for the piano as Chopin, and probably greater. -(preceding unsigned comment by 134.160.214.120 29 August 2005)

…erm, have you read the article's introduction lately? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Cello

The article says:

2 sonatas for cello and piano

Is this right? I thought he only wrote the one cello sonata, together with a small number of other works for cello and piano (like the grand duo concertante). I'm not Chopin expert though, so I'll let it stand for now. --Camembert

I checked Grove - he only wrote one cello sonata. I've changed it to reflect this. --Camembert

Asexual

What is the dispute over Chopin's asexuality? Sand attests to it in her letters; she didn't understand it. It's possible that Chopin may eventually have been wooed once, but that doesn't contradict the fact that his sexual orientation was asexuality. Shorne 01:44, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Speculation on the sexual lives of famous people is a grand pasttime, but it is, for the most part, just speculation. People have also theorized extensively about Chopin having had numerous affairs; there is a particular controversy surrounding Delfina Potocka. In the last century, a rather racy love letter ascribed to Chopin surfaced, but its authenticity has been widely disputed. Sand's comments on Chopin also need to be taken with a grain of salt; certainly that he was "asexual" is anything but a certain fact. All this sort of speculation is tempting -- the appeal of the celebrity tabloid extends far into the past! -- but we just don't really know. It's best to leave it to the historians, biographers, and social theorists, and stick with things we can be reasonably certain of here in our encyclopedia. !melquiades 19:08, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Of course anyone who has seen Chopin: Desire for Love Jerzy Antczak movie about Frédéric Chopin’s wild relationship with George Sand would never believe in Chopin’s asexuality... Seriously, this is a truly outstanding movie. Two versions were filmed simultaneously, Polish and English, but the trailer I linked to is an English version before it was dubbed by native English actors, so don’t let the funny accents fool you. Rafał Pocztarski 21:20, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The comments about Chopin's asexuality are more than speculation. Over and over again in letters to friends, Sand—who had shared many a bed in her day—expressed bewilderment over Chopin's refusal of her sexual advances. Like so many people, she simply was not familiar with asexuality and did not understand it when she encountered it. She went to considerable pains to investigate possibilities other than an asexual orientation. There's no reason to conclude that Sand's extensive correspondence on this subject was insincere or forged. Other evidence also exists.

Also, I'm not trying to titillate; I'm just trying to introduce important information. There is strong evidence that suggests that Chopin was asexual (meaning not inclined to have sex with anyone, male or female). That is important information about a composer whose music covers such a broad emotional range. Shorne 11:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikiproject: Composers

I've started a Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers. A lot of common editors seem to be working on various composers so I thought it might be good to have a Wikiproject to discuss any common issues. Take a look and see if you think it's a good idea. --Sketchee 22:30, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

Julian Fontana

I've just penned a stub on Julian Fontana which may be of relevance/ interest or you may be able to fact-check. Cutler 13:56, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Nationality

Is not his Polishness being overemphasised? He was of half-French ancestry and lived for much of his life in France. Anglius

His father was a polonized Frenchman - Chopin himself was very patriotic. The most important Poles lived in that time in exile. See also:Great Emigration, Hôtel Lambert--Witkacy 07:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but Chopin was not required to depart from Poland, or, sir, to Gallicise his Christian names. There is also a possibility that he became, or was always, a French subject, since Poland was not an independent nation. Anglius

Chopin: A Biography, New York, DoubleDay, 1980, ISBN 0385135971 by Adam Zamoyski, I have that book at home - if you will read it, you will know that he was a Pole through and through.--Witkacy 06:35, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It sounds interesting, sir. Anglius

Chopins heart

My dad told me that he had read that when Chopin died, his heart sent to Poland where it stayed, while his body was buried in Paris. My dad also said that this might be just a myth but thats what he had read. Does anybody know if this is true? True or not it is indeed a very symbolic story.

Indeed, very symbolic, and testament to his patriotism and love of Poland. It's mentioned in the Death and Funeral section of the article, and I too have read it elsewhere so I assume it is true. Heh that man fascinates me. I read something else interesting about a silver goblet of earth from Poland that he had poured on his coffin, does anyone know about that? M A Mason 19:00, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

It is true. It is located in the crypt of a church in downtown Warsaw. -Mei-Ting

In April 2014 jar containing Fryderyk Chopin's heart was taken out of its vault in the Holy Cross Church in Warsaw and examined by scientists. The jar, which was not checked in 69, was found to be in very good condition: still hermetic and full of its preservative fluid. It was concluded that Chopin has, indeed, been suffering from tuberculosis, which has led to his death. One can find full conversation with prof. Tadeusz Dobosz of the Wrocław Medical University here (in polish). Saom (talk) 10:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Fact check

I have been concerned for some while now that this article had no references. I have spent some time with a couple of biographies of the composer (referenced) and removed anything which these did not contain. Please reference the items removed before replacing them. I am not saying that I think these are necessarily untrue.

Unreferenced items I cannot verify and which aren't referenced: 1) Baptismal certificate written several weeks after his birth. 2) Sand's correspondence suggests that Chopin was asexual; that is, that he had no inclination to have sexual relations with anyone, male or female. 3) By 1849 most of his major works were completed - erm, ok. 4) Officially the cause of Chopin's death was tuberculosis, although there is some speculation that he may have had another disease such as cystic fibrosis or emphysema due in part to autopsy findings (reported only by his sister) seemingly inconsistent with the initial diagnosis. 5) He had a terror of being buried alive, and asked to be "cut open", writing a few days before his death: "As this earth will suffocate me, I implore you to have my body open so that I may not be buried alive". 6) Chopin reflected much of the mood of this desperate time in the twenty-four préludes, Op. 28, the majority of which were written in Majorca. - Siepmann goes so far as to state that this is speculation, as many of the Op. 28 seem to predate the visit to Mallorca.

I created a new section "Chopin in fiction" which seems to contain the bit about the film more comfortably than in the bit about Chopin and Sand's relationship. I moved some inline references down to the external links. I will look at the music sections later as well, as there does seem to me to be a lot of original research, and a lot missing (no mention of Hummel for instance). I replaced the original list of pianists, which was an invitation for anonymous drive-by additions, with a referenced list of pianists. --RobertG ♬ talk 19:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I have just read a 700 page [Biography by a Dutch professor] and can state the following:

1) Not a word. It just mentions the other date in the baptismal certificate.

2) Nothing about Chopin being asexual either.

4) A letter from Chopin's sister states that he died from a disease of the chest which had affected his lungs. And goes on to state that he had this disease for 30 years. A strange thing is that the biography mentiones Tuberculosis in a summary but nowhere in the text. I guess the only thing that can be said with certainty is that C. died of a long disease.

5) The book says that Chopin wanted his body to be 'opened', because he was convinced that none of the docters that had treated him made the correct diagnosis. Then it goes on to say that Chopin's father had requested his body to be opened, because he was scared to be burried alive. A note of father with this request still exists. Chopin's sister also wrote that Chopin requested an autopsy.

6) This book too mentions that he brought his uncompleted preludes manuscripts to Majorca to finish them there. Another part mentiones that he worked on them for years.

Janderk 12:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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;Composers Project Assessment of Frédéric Chopin: 2009-02-1 This is an assessment of article Frédéric Chopin by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Origins/family background/studies Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? good Early career Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? good Mature career Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? good List(s) of works Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. good Critical appreciation Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? good Illustrations and sound clips Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) good, but arrangement needs work Arrangement re-done for legibility. Hopefully that's better. Softlavender (talk) 20:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC) References, sources and bibliography Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article is well-referenced; citation work appears to be ongoing. Structure and compliance with WP MOS Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) good; external links could use scrubbing Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Summary This is a fine article, well on its way to FA consideration. My observations here are mostly nit-picking, but I will make one recommendation. I believe the article is a bit long, and suggest some divisions: Chopin's Early Years (birth to Paris), Chopin and Sand, Music of Chopin, all seem like subjects where there is enough structure and meat to merit a separate article, with a brief(er) summarization here. The bio section of the article is over-rich with decorations (images and sound), almost to distraction; this is at least in part due to the varying widths of the accompanying images and sound boxes. (I like the sound boxes accompanying the text in this way.) By the end of the article, the side material has petered out; some of the clutter above should be pushed down. Editors should also consider trying to scrub down the External links -- try to focus them on only general-purpose Chopin-related links. There are a number of links to external performances of a few of his works; these should be removed (and/or moved to the articles on those works, rather than being left here). Article is arguably A-class; formal review will require full citation. Magic♪piano 16:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC) I tend to agree with Magic♪piano on the length of the article; the same problem arose with article in fr:wiki: (see article: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Chopin and discussion page: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discuter:Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Chopin), the reason being, in my opinion, that Chopin is such a beloved composer & his life so well documented... here we go writing a book instead of an encyclopedic article — then it becomes difficult to choose between what to remove & what to keep. The only solution is to create sub-articles with the over-developed sections, and also remove anything that has to do with hearsay. Frania W. (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 20:23, 2 May 2016 (UTC)